I'll feel free to continue pointing out the hypocrisy of individuals on this site and the incessant shit posting done by a few in here. This is literally the 5th thread on this subject and they devolve into the same whining every time.
For instance, Murray told the OP in the April P9 data thread:
@DeaTh-ShiNoBi Sadly, there is little meaning to be derived from this event right now other than "Yeah, there were a lot of Gush decks". Going forward though, I feel this is valuable as a baseline of the format immediately after Lodestone's restriction and we can combine the results with future tournaments to get a larger sample size and hopefully infer something from that.
What does he do? Creates this shit post.
Then another user in here creates yet another satire filled garbage post.
Get real, hold yourself and others to higher standards.
Ok man, whatever.
Why bother, the amount of baseless whining in here after one P9 event post restriction is a total joke. It's pretty obvious the pitch fork mob is here and rational discussion has been thrown out the window.
The concept of restricting Mentor is just beyond laughable to me.
Your "suggestions" feed into the point that individuals are addressing the match up horridly wrong.
Why even bother replying to me then?
Since when expressing own opinion in a polite way backed up with some relevant data and reasonable arguments counts as whining? The fact you find something laughable doesn't mean it's baseless whining, like at all. People make here interesting points about Mentor/Gush and general observations after the 1st big tournament on mtgo in the new meta, trying to come up with a solution or just simply exchange information and you just write it off as baseless whining? I'm speachless, feel free to skip posting here at all, please.
There's probably no single card that solves Mentor as a threat. This to me, seems to be where the disconnect is. Like any meta threat it requires forethought and deliberate structural planning.
Why individuals would expect to solve Mentor by siding in two to three meta slots but not Workshops or Dredge is humorous to me.
Threads like this one are major contributors to why Mentor has been performing so well. The amount of disinformation is off the charts.
I also fully agree with Steven, in that more observational time is needed to come to any reasonable conclusion.
Could you enlighten us then what kind of disinformation is there over here? By the look of the tone you've chosen to contribute with this surely will be very easy for you to point out.
I just see reasonable arguments being discussed here.
Also, there are cards that solve Mentor as a threat (Toxic Deluge, Supreme Verdict, Thoughtseize, Sudden Shock, Oath of Druids, etc...). Are those enough to keep the engine behind Mentor in check? No. But thats something you should've added when making claims like that so that YOU don't flood this thread with any kind of desinformation.
Thanks for this topic and very interesting discussion. I think it's needed. I just wanted to add something interesting I've found.
I've been playing various Oath decks tuned to beat Mentor (for example Sun Titans with Pernicious Deeds, but also the more traditional) and I've realized, that you basically can't go into the midgame against Gush decks (especially Mentor). You either win within first 2-3 turns, or you lose the game.
So, thinking like that, I've tried to take Rich's winning Sylvan Mentor list and I've put Oaths and creatures in place of Mentors, Erayo and Snapcaster, adjusting the deck a little bit, cutting 1 Orchard (due to Gush), 1 Sylvan Library (due to Oaths), 1 Dack Fayden (due to Orchards) and I've left the rest as is.
I tried few games and I very quickly realized it felt as broken as playing the Mentor, just with a different win. I was able to outdraw my opponents almost all the time. They either won t1-t2, or got buried under CA, eventually losing to Oath or hardcasting a creature (Dromoka, most of the time), while they were not able to compete with the board consisting of Jace/Dack/Sylvan, lots of lands + hand full of counters/answers.
So, taking my little experiment into concideration, I believe that the Gush is the problem, not the Mentor. Although, Steve's point that all thet Mentor decks have to do is -2 Gush +2 something and they they're fine is pretty strong. Perhaps the combination of the 2 delve spells, 1 Gush, 1 Recall and other cantrips/tutors would be enough to keep Mentor dominating? Playing Oath vs Mentor, I'm favored g1, but g2/g3 I'm unfavored, because my Oaths get worse due to all the hate (namely Priests) but their Mentors are still the same AND their engine is still the same. And due to the engine itself, they will always have more answers for my Oaths then me for their Mentors. It doesn't really matter what is your preffered Mentor hate (Sudden Shock, Verdicts in my case), they will eventually just draw more Mentors/Answers/Jaces and kill you (I lost g1 to Mentor in a daily yesterday when he ultimated me with Jace with 4 cards left in his library - he was not able to deal with Oath, but it didn't matter, CA matters, nothing else).
I don't quite understand how the whole luck vs skill works (seems very complicated). What I've found however is, that it is very humbling to acknowladge it's there and learn how not to get frustrated by it. It's one of the most challenging things I've experienced playing magic. Obviously, people are different and approach this issue differently. But ultimately, I believe one has to learn how to deal with that to enjoy magic properly.
@DeaTh-ShiNoBi Smokestack seems very slow to battle all the tokens. It might be the best bet for the time being, however. Also, losing CotV really hurts the prison strategy, because people can save their Claims and other cheap answers for the Smokestack. The absence of LSG means there's plenty of time to draw cards and keep the Smokestack off-board.
Workshop, Metalworker, go seems like asking for trouble, too. It has always been like that. I think a replacement needs to be found that has some denial impact. Only body to tap sideways and hope for the best under 1 or 2 Spheres won't cut it I believe.
I'd like them to print some other relevant card that Shop pilots could use instead of LSG to provide clock and/or help to lock the game out, just not as oppresive as LSG was. It's still mind boggling how could they have not touched Gush or Mentor at the same time. I think it's pretty clear whats next candidate for restriction (I really hope it doesn't snowball into mass restrictions - that would be the end of the format).
I see many people comparing turn 1 LSG to turn 1 Oath, Mox, Orchard, questioning how is this fair that LSG is restricted now while Oath isn't. I see the similarity, but it don't think it's really comparable. Lets discuss this a little bit.
The engine of Shop decks and what makes it a "pillar" is actually Mishra's Workshop, not LSG. As long as they don't touch Workshop, the deck can recover and continue to perform well. Either with additional cards that get printed, or with some adjustments, possibly going a bit more the prison/lock direction, I'm sure people will figure it out. While it is true that Oath belongs (50/50 maybe?) into the Drain/Blue "pillar", restricting Oath of Druids would straight up kill the whole archetype. So I don't understand how could you ask for the Oath restriction now that LSG is restricted and compare those two cards (rather lines of play).
There are plenty of ways to answer an Oath (Priest, Claim, Cage, Disenchant, Karakas, Wear/Tear, hexproof cards, etc...), should the deck start to be represented in high numbers, which pretty much never happens since it's so easy to hate out (it helps that Dredge/Oath hate overlaps). It's always someone making the right meta call and winning with Oath, catching people off-guard. Similarly to how Dredge wins tournaments here and there. For LSG, you have basically only passive answers and most of the time, one of those needs to be FoW + blue card. Chances are there is an additional lock piece next turn (and/or Wasteland), which makes almost all your answers unplayable. This is the biggest difference. You can just win through Oath or answer it with cards you play as opposed to decent Shop hand featuring 1st turn LSG with at least 1 additional lock piece or Wasteland effect.
If anything, it's the Griselbrand what makes Oath feel broken. I'd be fine if people compared LSG to Griselbrand, but not to Oath of Druids itself. Not to mention that without Oath, the format would degenerate into just tapping creatures to win (half way there already) and combo, imo.