some sort of dredge-shops hybrid list
You're a terrifying person, you know that, right?
@chubbyrain Card is playable. My only concern -- and I don't play enough Vintage lately to know if it's serious or not -- is whether a removal spell that addresses colorless creatures only is too narrow. Hitting all artifacts is broad enough to see play. Is killing shops creatures and Eldrazi but not other artifacts still broad enough?
@fsecco In roughly alphabetical order:
Dack Fayden or Nicol Bolas steals one of their creatures to block with. Depending on the board state (particularly if Wurmcoil is involved) that might be enough.
Elspeth Tirel or Sun's Champion makes 3 blockers.
Gideon Jura makes all the creatures attack him instead.
Gideon of the Trials makes you un-killable.
These are six mana walkers that do not end the game and whose most powerful effect is going to tutor up another terrible six mana walker. Why...?
I agree. It's like we got tired of marketing to 14 year olds so we started marketing to 7 year olds instead. A few more like this and I'll find myself running agro teletubbies with a purple splash to hardcast Barney the dinosaur.
See now the internet is way ahead of you
This is a very powerful card, but I can't see what we do with it in Vintage. Wouldn't you want Bob any time you might reach for this? I know this card is faster in some cases, but it's also so much less reliable than a card that draws you something every upkeep.
I've got a set of Collector's Edition I got back in '97 taking up space. I love it, but to be honest I've never used it myself. I see that the Old School crowd uses these cards to play with, which means the value has gone up and if I were to sell it, the cards would get some play.
The cards are all Mint / Near Mint except the Moxen, which are signed by the artist (Gen Con 98) and in Heavily Played condition. The corners on those cards especially are pretty banged up. The dual lands are Light Play, having been used in sleeves a few times, and the Psionic Blast and Icy Manip are both signed, too.
If anyone is interested in buying, PM me. Looking to sell as a complete set, not piecemeal, and ideally to someone who is also going to keep it together while they use it for Old School.
(I'm also in talks with a potential buyer in San Fran, and if that's the way I go, I might go deliver it in person. @Smmenen, if there are playtest-friendly tournaments in the next few months out there, I'd love to say hello to you in person and get stomped by So Many Insane Plays)
@smmenen Doesn't that kind of cut against what you are trying to do, though? I thought you were looking for objective and consistent metrics, not mob justice, when it comes to the B&R list?
Better yet, let's see the proof in that pudding. I hope we see someone in this season of the VSL try out a Traxos shops deck. I want to see "go wide shops" with Ravager face off against "go tall shops" with Traxos. Traditionally, horizontal growth has trumped vertical growth, but perhaps a first turn 7/7 is enough to turn that tide.
@maximumcdawg Non-interactive, for me, is a deck that ignore most of what you're doing, except for a few key interactions.
Right, but that's completely relative. A dredge deck can "completely ignore" Noble Fish in the sense that Noble Fish's usual game plan of deploying creatures and grinding out advantage while beating down is not interacting on the same vector as what the dredge deck is doing. A dredge deck cannot "completely ignore" a deck that plans to win using Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience.
So either you have an specific, hard to get interaction with it, or you're dead right now. Trinisphere fits that bill perfectly. Either you have Force of Will turn 1 (and only FoW matters) or you're dead.
Again, this is relative. Take Infect. Either you have a way to stop a 1 drop from swinging into you or you are potentially dead on turn 1 or 2. The difference is that there are more decks in the metagame with creatures or ways to interact with creatures, that's all.
In the Trinisphere example, sure, Force of Will interacts with Trinishphere on the stack vector. So does Artifact Blast or Annul, really. You could also use a midrange deck that uses Sol Lands or Spirit Guides to power out 3/4 drops to the exclusion of cheaper spells. Again, the "interactivity" of Trinisphere is totally dependent on what kind of decks it is facing.
We only think of cards that stop decks like dredge as "specific" and "hard to get" counters because the decks running them would not normally do so except for the need to hedge. That's as much a complaint about how those decks are constructed as it is against the allegedly "non-interactive" deck.
Possible Future @fsecco objection: "Don't try to defend Trinisphere, that card is garbage."
I agree, but not based on "interactivity" in a vacuum. Rather, I think the question is: If you create a metagame where decks have to interact on a particular vector, is the resulting format healthy and fun? That's a fair question to ask, and I think it, it's the right one.
So, we restrict Trinisphere not because it is "un-interactive" but because we realize that it leads to a format that we don't like. Games between Trinisphere and Force of Will become coin flips - we don't want THAT much variance in the games, do we? Hypothetical midrangey decks sound like they'd be complete dogs to decks running cheap Vintage cards, which would go under them. That'd lead to a silly Rock-Paper-Sissors game that I don't think we want.
Why do I care? Because the argument about a deck being bad because its "non-interactive" is easy to expand to any deck you don't want to have to sideboard against. Dredge? Non-interactive because I don't want to interact with the graveyard vector. Shops? Non-interactive because I don't want to interact with cost-increasing effects.
See the danger there?