From a practical standpoint, needing to change your deck every year would be very annoying, unless you ran it as full proxy or something.
As always, whenever someone proposes a new format, I say the same thing: if you want to start something, then do it yourself. Get a playtest group and make some decks and jam some games. Then if it ends up being good, start running tournaments.
You're not going to convert people with just a forum post, you have to build a (small) community first.
@jimtosetti said in Tiny Forgebots:
I think it would be better if they just decided not to print this card. There is no point of going into the technical discussion of balance or qualitative values for the format because they are obviously moving away from these things.
too bad, it's getting printed whether you like it or not!
If the goal was to increase access to vintage and attendance, why not allow the latest batch of counterfeit cards, appropriately marked, to be used as in local non-sanctioned tournament play? I guess we can either keep our memberships to the exclusive vintage country club or open the course to the masses. Any vintage deck would be available for less than $200 USD, which last time I checked was about the same amount of money as my putter. Proxies can make the board annoyingly confusing- is that a mox jet or mox ruby? is that an underground sea or a volcanic- oh wait, it was a fetchland? I see a easy way to open the format, the cards are distinguishable, and actually makes play easier. Solves the proxy issues Brassman pointed out- legibility and damage, as well as the video coverage, and COST all in one fell swoop.
we shouldn't support counterfeiters. just make nice proxies instead.
legibility isn't just a proxy thing either for what it's worth, I can't tell the difference between most of the expedition lands.
The format for Magic is a concession to the fact that they did not know what they were doing with card designs at the onset of the game. Banned and restricted lists were pieced together to give the format some structure to make it possible, but it is still a format of overpowered cards from the dawn of the game that will not be reprinted, in part created to placate card speculators so that there reserve list cards held value. I think I can reasonably say that if the lotus and moxen were not legal in any format they would drop in price as they would be relegated to collectors items.
Look at the eternal formats for any CCG that has lasted the test of time. Either the stuff from the early sets were vastly underpowered and therefor a non issue for players wishing to join the format, typically games that learned from Magics mis-steps, or they are in the same situation where the barrier to entry is much higher.
Elite players tend not to like to think of themselves as breathing rarefied air, same as how millionaires like to think they are "of the people", but the very fact that you are posting on this forum does in fact carry with it some level of elitism because you play a format of magic with a super high barrier to entry and a staunched, somewhat clique based community.
I'll equate this tread to a current political discussion.
usually this is a bad move
yes, removing the reserve list would remove a large barrier to entry into vintage (not all of them), but it wouldn't be a silver bullet for growing the format*. however, we don't have power to remove the reserve list. we do have the power to run proxy events.
*decks would still be expensive unless wotc decided to print virtually unlimited amounts of power and duals and all the other expensive cards.
@craw_advantage The prospect of only having 2 or 3 paper events is the reality of Vintage right now. The interesting thing is that Old School has several well attended paper events without proxies.
I can barely keep up with the number of Old School events and the attendance is typically more that 32. I picked that because it is the So Many Insane Plays cutoff.
Is this more of a card pool issue? Is it nostalgia? Why is that player base able to sustain more events, at least for now, for paper events?
Old School events have great turnout because they are fun, and very different from sanctioned magic tournaments. They're usually in a venue that serves drinks, and they're run by community members who do a lot of work to make sure everyone has a good time. That sort of event doesn't exist for Vintage at the moment.
I totally agree that vintage events should be allow proxies. All of the events that I have run allowed proxies. But if you want to get new blood in, you have to convince them that it's worth their time to build a deck (or borrow one) and show up.
What: Unlimited Proxy Vintage Magic
When: Saturday June 29, 2018
Where: Kidforce Collectibles, Berea, OH
Entry Fee: $20.00
Registration Opens: 11 AM
Start Time: 12:00 PM
Format: Unsanctioned Vintage - Unlimited Proxy
Prizes - store credit equal 100% of entry fees, split among the top players. ** PLUS!! ** $50 prize donation from our awesome community!
We will play Swiss+1 rounds based on attendance so everyone gets to play plenty of Vintage. Decklists will be collected from the top players. If you feel confident you'll make it in, write one up beforehand to save time!
Playtest cards will be permitted. There are several ways of making playtest cards:
Using Basic Land: The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it.
Altering an existing card: PREFERRED! The second method is to use a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that you want to make as a Playtest Card and remove any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics. Methods for doing this can be found on youtube.
Printed Slips: the third is to print out all 75 cards, and slip the cuts sheets of paper into each sleeve. If you do this, every card must be printed on the same type of paper and have a basic land backing.
Collector's Edition cards: CE/ICE versions of cards are allowed.
World Championship cards: blank WC cards can be used to make great proxies with your own writing or art.
See you there! BAOM!
This is most comparable to Murderous Cut, which saw a tiny bit of Vintage play. It's in a slightly better color, and can hit walkers, but not some large dudes.
"Is this a problem when we already play the two restricted delve spells"
There is effectively no limit on how many delve spells you can play that refuel your hand (Dig, Cruise). The answer for "how many" of those effects to play is "as many as possible". Delve spells that don't draw cards or let you play more cards are limited (almost nobody plays a full set of Gurmags), usually to 1-2, maybe 3 if you have a lot of enablers.
So in other words, if you want to play 1-2 copies of this card there isn't much downside from a delving point of view.
Team Serious, M:TG, Vintage Open:
• Date: Saturday, March 16, 2019.
• Registration Time: 11:00 a.m.
• Start Time: 12:00 noon.
• Location & POC: The POP Shop, 3104 Milan Road, Sandusky, Ohio 44870, Telephone, 419-621-1127.
• Entry Fee: $20.
• Format: Non DCI Sanctioned, Vintage.
• Prizes: Every paid entry will receive a promotional card. All entry fees collected will be paid as cash prizes. Top 4 playoff if 8 to 15 players. Top 8 playoff if 16 or more players.
• Notes: Team Serious is hosting this Vintage tournament in conjunction with The Pop Shop. If you need to car pool to Sandusky, please post your needs on our Facebook Event page and we'll find someone whom you can travel with. To save time, consider typing or writing up your deck list before arriving.
• Playtest cards will be permitted. There are THREE ways of making Playtest cards: 1) Using Basic Land: The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it. 2) Altering an existing card: PREFERRED! The second method is to use a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that you want to make as a Playtest Card and remove any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics. Methods for doing this can be found on Youtube.com. 3) Printed Slips: the third is to print out all 75 cards, and slip the cuts sheets of paper into each sleeve. If you do this, every card must be printed on the same type of paper and have a basic land backing.
See you there! BAOM!
I don't think that black or white are cuttable. I have looked into both.
You can play just the 1 Mentor as your only white spell off of 1 Tundra so that's sort of a given.
Black is not cuttable. DT is just too good. Yawgwill is pretty important in grindy games vs blue. Both colors also give you access to good sideboard cards.
This was what I ran. There are several changes I want to make.
1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Monastery Mentor 2 Snapcaster Mage 1 Repeal 1 Hurkyl's Recall 3 Mental Misstep 4 Force of Will 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Dig Through Time 1 Treasure Cruise 4 Paradoxical Outcome 1 Night's Whisper 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Ponder 1 Brainstorm 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 3 Mox Opal 1 Blightsteel Colossus 1 Time Vault 1 Voltaic Key 1 Tinker 1 Mana Vault 1 Tolarian Academy 1 Island 2 Tundra 2 Volcanic Island 2 Underground Sea 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Scalding Tarn 1 Polluted Delta 2 Flooded Strand 1 Library of Alexandria Sideboard: 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Tormod's Crypt 2 Containment Priest 1 Balance 2 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Fragmentize 2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation 2 Pyroblast``` Changes to make: -1 Snapcaster +1 Repeal -1 Vampiric -1 Night's Whisper +2 Preordain -1 Tundra +1 Island And then I'd change up the board a bit, put in 1 more Hurkyls and 1 Karakas. Maybe a Fluster or 3rd Pyroblast too.
I ran red splash (2 dack main, 2 volcs, 2 pyroblast board) PO at EW. While I think the traditional Uwb build without misstep would have been better for that event, I want to go back to the red splash + misstep to have answers to stuff like Lavinia and Remora. Dack also feels pretty good now.