The comparison to FOW is that you pitch a blue card but you don’t lose a life which is very relevant. You can only pitch when it’s not your turn and it can’t hit creatures. So, it’s good in blue mirrors and against certain combo decks.
This card is for sure playable and will see play especially since we have the insane planeswalkers running around that are only starting to change the meta. Even against shops you can stop Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance on their turn one. I would say 2 of main maybe over Flusterstorm.
@chubbyrain I was very high on this card and the So Many Insane Plays guys were as well. I think the blue shell is going to evolve. She really challenges the blue stew that we have become accustomed to and I’m very happy about this. I see some very interesting deck builds coming from this card.
Dealing with Shops and Eldrazi is going pose an intriguing challenge. I am looking into mill strategies. I think she is so one sided that a painter style combo could do well or Helm and Rest In Peace.
She may even bring back the old Tezzeret, the Seeker decks.
@protoaddict I really like your point of view here. My stance has evolved a bit over time on the counterspell debate.
I think counterspells can mold a format in a very distorted way. If you look at standard it has recently turned into a heavy counter format and legacy is a heavy counter format which makes most decks hyper-efficient similar to vintage.
Modern on the other had does not have very many good counter options and the format is more aggro. It’s still efficient but in a different way.
I firmly believe the reliance on counter magic takes a certain level of fun out of the game. On the other hand, just doing whatever you want does not give us much of a game either.
My hope is that the uncounterable creatures get better but no too much better. This also feeds into the issue you just described because most of those creatures are green.
@hrishi That is an interesting point. Wizards has been printing better and better creatures. A few are blue creatures like Snapcaster, and True name but most of them are not blue. As we see more creatures and more planeswalkers, especially non-blue ones, the power cards from the old sets have to complete on a new level.
We will also see some deck play the core blue spells will really good creatures like Survival. And we see black based combo play a much smaller number of blue spells.
Wizards has made some new blue spells that were just overpowered like Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time but my guess is that it will be a very long time before that happens again.
I am guessing that the printing of better creatures and lands with more non-blue planeswalkers is going to push blue closer to 50%. If players were evaluating on best options over nostalgia we would see less blue overall in the format. You can already see that starting to happen in Legacy as Brainstorm decks are getting squeezed by the chalice decks and aggro decks.
I took a little break from Magic and I’m coming back into Vintage now. I have been looking at the decks making top 8’s and I am seeing a significant increase in non-blue based decks in the top 8. Looking at numbers from a few sites the top 8 is about 40% to 50% non-blue. Blue decks are a big bucket count Xerox, PO, BUG, Oath and so on.
I was very excited about the new cards and if the format is leaning more on creatures and non-blue then planeswalkers are not great in this meta. It is obvious that planewalkers are great but they are not very good against creature heavy decks.
Vintage is hyper-efficient right now but and creature based decks do well in a hyper efficient format. PO and Xerox are by far the largest part of the Vintage meta game.
Question is are most decks played still blue based decks? Or have we hit a tipping point where non-blue will maintain the 40% to 50% make up in the meta?
@thewhitedragon69 since you have white try 1 or 2 abolish. It’s negative card value but it was good against old stax. Fragmatize is your friend and some type of ramp. Noble Heirarch is not good but Deathrite Shaman is good.
Pick a lane. Your deck cannot be generally good against everything. Being good against shops will make you bad against Xerox and Dredge. Look at your meta and pick.
I love this card! I know mono blue control is not a deck anymore but this card is just flexible. It stops most blue decks and slows dredge down. For a blue planeswalker that costs 3 mana you cannot do much better. I am excited about this card not because it will win me the game but because it synergizes so well with other strategies.
@hrishi I think there are some cards that will have a longterm impact on Vintage. Paradoxical Outcome took a year to develop into a real deck. Survival took a while after Hollow One was released as well. Deck creation is a very time consuming exercise in Vintage and there are very good card to seed that creation, it just may take a year or 2.
I have been thinking about what is a non-game ever since I listened to the last So Many Insane Plays podcast. I took a break from MTGO and started getting back into it this week and I thought I had an ok deck but I have just played what I consider to be non-games.
I hate the term fair deck but I have been playing grindy decks as of late and the experience has been very off putting to say the least. I went through a similar experience about a year ago except in paper.
I built and played several grindy blue decks and I just keep playing games where I just felt like skill was not a factor. I took notes and examined my play patterns and I could not see how skill even factored in.
I went to play PO and I had a lot of success. Looking at the game now I have to ask, “are there just more non-games now?”
I don’t have data to look at for any of this but it feels like there are more games where I either set up and win or my opponent just has hands that I cannot beat.
Shops and Dredge are easy targets and I do not want to attack specific decks but look at Vintage from the perspective that there will always be some non-games.
Vintage is a very powerful format with very powerful cards. If I play Ancestral Recall then Snapcaster my Ancestral Recall you are not going to win that game. I think the lines of play are just giving us more non-games and this is not good for the format.
I agree with most of the points that @ChubbyRain has made. The barrier of costs in the format is limiting the format. Either the power that is restricted will eventually banned due to availability. Or those cards will be reprinted.
The idea of a singleton format just rings hollow to me. There are fast Modern decks that can compete against those. Vintage decks should just beat all other formats.
@khahan from what I have gathered the paper community is similar to the Old School community. There is a blend of people who are spiky and spicy. I usually see more “original”deck building in paper. This is a vast generalization I know and someone will flame me out (like
I really care)
I see more people play tier 1 decks and the “best” decks online. There are of course exceptions and people have different difinitions of brew and original so this is all very subjective with nothing to back it up, so no one should care.
The reason for this split is the cost of entry and the number of events. If there were paper events like modern does it. Weekly, and large events pretty much every week or every other week you tend to see more decks. People get sick of losing to the same crap and playing against the same crap.
Online is different. There are so many reasons why but it is just different and in the leagues and challenges you are incentivized to get at least 3 wins to get back your entry. This, in my opinion, distorts the meta-game.
@protoaddct I find the argument that restrictions are needed to shake up the format to be a false choice. If you want different decks then build different decks.
I have been brewing like crazy lately and the format is much more open than you would believe. If you just play main deck Leyline of the Void or explore Cavern of Souls, you will see that there is room for innovation.
If the only point of this is to open up the format then you have lost a lot of players. If the point is to change how the format is viewed and break certain play patterns then you have a wide audience.
@brianpk80 I really respect your analysis and points. I have danced around some of these points myself. There is a very big challenge here there you are not addressing and that is the player base itself.
I have written several posts over the past year or so trying to become a better player and understand the meta game. But, the most insight I gained was looking at the split between Old School and Vintage.
I have learned that Vintage probably has the most diverse group of players. It is not the largest group but a very diverse group. This causes all kinds of perception issues. I was primarily a paper player and since I have had my 3rd child late last year, I am now primarily a digital player. This has changed my view on all of these discussions.
There is a HUGE gulf between who plays paper, how they play it and why compared to the digital format. It is literally 2 different formats. There is also a very large split in the Vintage community basesd on age and income. I am a 40 something professional, and my view of what I want from the game is very different from a 20 something college kid or young professional.
With all of that said, I think your points are good but the conclusions are not quite what people are looking for in this format.
People play Vintage for many, many reasons. I myself switch from nostalgia to competitive to goofing around and some times just experimenting. I like your premise and I like several of your points but I do disagree with the recommended actions.
The primary reason that I disagree with your recommended actions is because I have found that most people like Vintage the way that it is. Some people leave and some people join, but most people actually like what Vintage is now and what it has been aside from a few periods of single cards that messed up the format.
The reason for this is that Vintage is the place where busted things happen. If you are playing a control style deck you have to expect that Shops will try to overpower you in the first 3 turns, and the dredge is just a bad math up for you game 1. If you are playing Dredge you know that you have to win game 1 and fight like hell to win one of the next 2 games.
I look at Legacy where they killed off Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe just to get the same format from 2014, and that is because they won't ever touch Brainstorm, Force of Will, Dark Ritual and Chalice of the Void. Those card define Legacy. Vintage is defined by the core restricted cards from Alpha/Beta, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad and whatever budget option beats those things.
This is not a bad thing it's just what it is. Our meta-game is surprisingly small compared to Modern given our card pool because similar to Legacy it is about efficiency. I play many formats and each format gives me something different. I primarily play Vintage and I have not only accepted the meta-game but I have come around to enjoying it.