@serracollector You just gave me a great idea. I have been going through old cards and I could play Recycle
It may be better than Yawgmoth's Bargin in a deck that runs Replenish
@hierarchnoble You make fair points. I have nothing against Mental Misstep. I just find that when I start building a blue deck they all started with the same list of cards. That is not to say those cards were bad and should not have been there.
The point of this thread was to try and break out of that and see where it led me. I have always enjoyed Blue Moon, I have played in all of the formats. I really wanted an Esper deck to play to and I like StoneBlade a lot.
These decks all have a common play style with different methods of getting to the same place. I think putting Mental Misstep and Dack Fayden on the board is not cheating the goal of this thread but embracing it. I had to get comfortable letting Preordain resolve again, which was annoying but healthy.
@brass-man There is a lot in your post. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I have tested the deck a bit more on Paper and on MTGO. I actually invested in a real side board on MTGO even though I was really about to just quit MTGO but this deck is really fun and brought me back (I'll save that for another thread).
I found that the main deck needed Consecrated Sphinx, it is a huge help. Since I'm not playing Mental Misstep in the main on purpose, I learned that I have to change my view of the tempo. I think @nedleeds was right that Mental Misstep has become a real crutch and I am so used to having it to slow down a Combo player that I was not looking at the of over tempo.
The DPS and Bargin decks are really just like old TPS decks, a little better but close. The way to manage them is to control the tempo. They are waiting to Duress you or resolve a Defense Grid then Combo out. The Paradoxical decks are aggressive in nature and play on offense.
I ended up just learning patience, game one is probably at 40% against DPS and maybe 50/50 against PO. I put Mental Misstep on the board with Dack Fayden. This allows me to play against Xerox decks on a fair tempo and it is working, and gives me a decent game 1 against Shops.
After boarding in MM and Dack and losing the Lightning Bolts the deck is able to control the tempo against control. I am really starting to favor this deck as my deck to play.
@brass-man I am still playing Oath and I like the idea in general. If you look at the Tournament Report threads, I played a Blood Moon in Sun Titan Oath build where I had a 3rd place finish in a Vintage Trial. I know Oath decks like their color wheel to be extremely varied with 4 colors but the disruption of Blood Moon was amazing. I would totally run it in my main again on Oath.
This is good feedback. It does come down to building a fun deck vs a competitive deck. I was thinking of an OmniTell type deck with Yawgmoth's Bargin and Omniscience. It is essentially a combo deck with back up. I built the latest version of the Bargin and the deck is solid but I cannot see playing it a large event due to variance and counter magic.
I was hoping that Replenish may offer a way to sure up some of the weaknesses or maybe there is an old/new deck here. Something like Rector Trix but better?
I have been examining cards in the new set and I was wondering if Replenish could be playable in Vintage. I has been a very longtime since that card has been playable in the format. It is a bit slow and very dependent on the graveyard so it is a bit difficult to justify in the meta-game.
I had built a decent Legacy deck with Replenish that played Solemnity, Moat, Phyrexian Unlife, and Dark Depths. I did not play it at Eternal Weekend because I did not have enough time to workout the issues in the meta-game.
Looking at Vintage, I think there are a lot of enchantment cards that are playable and Auras that are also playable. I really like Oath of Teferi and Omniscience. The obvious issues are a reliable win condition and getting through the meta-game staple decks: Shops, Paradoxical, Xerox, Dredge and Oath.
I'm looking for ideas. I will throw together a version of the deck and see if it is even worth it.
So, I finally go around to testing this on MTGO. It works well against creature decks and Shops. There are issues with Dredge mainly because I need Grafdiggers cage on the board and I'm too cheap to buy them. My unexpected foe was Combo. I keep losing to combo. I decide to put Mental Misstep and Dack Fayden on the sideboard against combo and this is helping quite a bit.
Any advice for a Blue Moon deck vs Combo would be great!
Awesome work for setting this up Ben. This will great practice for SCG Con
I'm really look forward to this one. I could not make the last two
Let me start by saying I really appreciate all of the effort that is put into to getting this data.
But, I am very tired of being dismissed about my point that Paper events are showing more innovative decks and more diversity. Just checking this site I get found these results:
http://themanadrain.com/topic/1862/knight-ware-monthly-unsanctioned-vintage-4-15-2018 (12 players)
2nd 2 Card Monte
http://themanadrain.com/topic/1861/14-april-2018-romancing-the-stones-3-27-players-in-austin-tx (27 players)
1st Paradoxical Mentor
2nd White Eldrazi
3rd Dark Petition Storm
4th Two Card Monte
http://themanadrain.com/topic/1802/lcv-2018-march-22-players-barcelona-top16-decklists (22 players)
1st Hydra Gush
I see that the MTGO Challenges are getting 40 - 50 players, which is awesome. I also see a ton of discussion on Vintage Lands and 8 Moon, which you will never see top 8 on MTGO. Is it because the people that play these decks are bad players? The answer is NO. There is a population of players that do not play MTGO but play Magic at a high level. The answer is YES. They may not be as good as the Champs on MTGO but their decks and their innovations are not in the MTGO data.
I am about to sell all of my MTGO cards and get off MTGO. I do not like it, but I do see value in having it and looking at the data. I also see value in looking at what people are playing in Paper.
I like this idea and I tried playing around with it but Back to Basics requires a game that has developed a bit. Vintage is a little too explosive for this card.
The issue with this card in vintage is that is not fast enough or disruptive enough . Maybe Damping Sphere could help but I do not know. Also, you are playing the ground game with Mentor and playing with Moat may be your better bet here with Tabernacle.
The combo decks rely very heavily on artifacts, the shop deck usually need 2 turns to put enough pressure on the board to force you to react, and Dredge needs 2 dredge targets to move past you.
Blood Moon is overall a better card because it is immediate disruption. The other issue is Oath and LandStill can play past you. You may disrupt some blue control decks but most good players will get past you and either race you or fight you on the stack to get their won con down.
Honestly, I'm feeling a little ganged up on here. I just spent $1500 trying to play online when I already own all of the cards.
My experiences on MTGO have been a mixed bag. I see on this site that people use data and anecdotes from MTGO all of the time.
I have a high level of respect for people who play at Championship levels, I'm trying to get to that level. My observations were meant to highlight big differences from playing paper to playing MTGO.
I used language not to judge or demonize and I put this into context of a "In My Opinion" view.
@gremlin-lord I keep hearing this argument and I said in my piece and have continued to say that there is value in playing MTGO for some people.
I have played against people who play a lot of MTGO and people who are not on MTGO at all and I cannot see a significant difference in their play.
What I can tell you, when playing in a non-proxy event - you need cards.
I have a lot of cards and I encourage players to try vintage by showing them decks and how they work.
The 400 or so players that played at Champs mostly showed up to have fun not to be world champion.
Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.