You mean there are two decks: Force of Will decks and Sphere decks.
Did the count: 31 out of 32 decks have 4 Forces or 4 Spheres. This is a more complete taxonomy but you don’t use it. Why not? Restricting Force would reduce the deck building burden of including 20+ Blue cards, which is a more significant constraint for “Blue stew”than 3 missteps. I guess you understand that limiting interaction in a broken format is a bad idea. War tournaments aren’t exactly popular.
Instead of railing against the card, you should look at ways of using it to break from the Bazaar, Shops, Force triumvirate that has dominated vintage. Or don’t. Keep arguing that my cindervines jund list is the same as pitch dredge and rug pyromancer because they run 4 missteps. I’m sure the DCI will get a good chuckle at that.
Lol, build a fucking Jund deck without Mental Misstep then we'll talk.
Edit: and I don't include Force of Will because nobody ever discards a card from inclusion in a deck during deck building because it gets countered by Force of Will. The scrap heap of decks could have been is littered with shit that gets Misstepped because the deck had no more room after cramming 3.8 of the stupid POS in every non-sphere, non-PO (defense grid) deck in the format.
I've said that a million times. In my opinion Mental Missteps misery starts in the deck building process and continues in the play pattern of whoops I had more.
@nedleeds I see myself playing Vintage on paper until I am too old to shuffle. I wrote this post because I think paper needs to evolve. Proxies offer a way to introduce players to the game as does MTGO.
If the game is going to evolve then players without power can reimagine the format and play every card in MTG on their terms. If we only measure Vintage using MTGO then that won't happen and the incentive to innovate is shutdown.
I don't disagree, I'm saying the two are different for many, many reasons. It's almost impossible to disentangle the possible reasons why - yet the 2 share a B&R list. It's a problem.
Looking at the Challenge results from this weekend, there is only 1 deck with Lavinia in the top8. There are 3 Shops decks.
Is Lavinia making Shops better? There were no Jeskai decks in top 8. Is she cannibalizing the Jeskai decks? Where is BUG and Survival in the meta right now?
Because there are 3 decks.
That's why this format is miserable. Even the 'best' Dredge deck is now universally on 4 Misstep.
That's it. 3 decks. Missteps, Spheres and Outcome. This Vintage challenge has like 2 decks in the top 32 that deviate.
There's the occasional person who puts a Glyph Keeper, a Kaya or some other random 1 or 2 of in his Misstep deck and waves the innovator flag but it's the same play pattern. The Glyph Keeper could have been a Phantom Monster in 95% of games. Same for Shops, somebody plays a Triskelion again and acts like he's invented nuclear fission.
Until Misstep goes expect the same, there's just no room left to build a deck after you've added the Blue Stew (tm), 4 Missteps to Misstep the other Blue guys Missteps. Same with the best core Shop cards, Ravager x 4, etc..
MTGO is a horrible piece of software so that cuts out a certain segment of players.
MTGO doesn't simulate the paper experience of reading an opponent, bluffing and handles a massive amount of the rules for you (missed Ichorid triggers, etc.).
Paper Sanctioned Vintage for new players is super expensive cutting out a certain segment of players.
Paper Proxy Vintage repulses some players because the aesthetics of proxies is terrible.
Also the aforementioned loops situation and the chess clock matters.
It was always going to be different. When MTGO finally gets cattle bolted it will be interesting to see how Vintage survives.
@rat3de To cast Crop Rotation you have to sac a land, when it get MM it's a 2 for 1. When Death's Shadow is counter it's a 1 for 1.
Technically, MM a DS is still 2 for 1 since they used a mana source to cast DS.
They also made a token and got +1 mana for delve. (ducks)
Great retrospective and some fair and balanced postulating! For old people like me it's a good memory refresher. An interesting follow up might be the 5 most important moments in Type I's history (assuming Type I starts from January 1994).
in no particular order
*Removal of power level errata from Time Vault
As you pointed out, exacerbated by Tezz win conditions could now be condensed down to less than The Deck levels.
*The Creation of Planeswalkers
Paradigm shifting card type that in a sense obsoleted the big midrange creature end game. Jace and Tezz in particular being wincons and engines all in one card.
*Black Monday (June 20, 2008)
Rather than some of the surgical restrictions the DCI takes a machete to the stock 4x playsets found in many blue strategies. This is the last time they take such a howitzer to any format really.
*The bifurcation of Type I and II's B&R lists
A key change that would make future decisions far more sensible. This obviously had to happen at some point but when it did it was pretty earth shaking. Vise Age was dominating Type II but the Vise was holding Necro and the Deck somewhat in check in Type I.
Phyrexian Mana & Delve
I tossed these two together as 2 of the bigger design "mistakes" that not only mule fucked Type I but also made Legacy miserable for almost 2 years in aggregate. Phyrexian "Free" and Delve "Free" went together like peanut butter and jelly, with Dack and Token Spammers as the bread. IMO a few cards died for the sins of these design errors.
The printing of Force of Will
90% of the people playing type I now don't know what a world is like without this card or it's cousins. Maybe more than 90%. But it's printing fundamentally changed how type I was played. How decks were built. It forever changed the bluffing and going for it subgame in Magic.
Anyway, just some ideas for a top 5.
Thanks, I never had any idea any of that had ever happened.
Do you think that when Channel was reprinted in SoK it had anything to do with Type 2 becoming Standard around then? -I do realize that there was very little broken stuff you could do with Channel in that era's Standard.
Maybe, October 1995 Type II is 4th, IA, Chronicles, FE. So Tinder Wall go, untap channel, Fireball/Disintegrate/Lava Burst for 20 leaving you at 1. Orcish Lumberjack also could do the same. 1 Channel is still legal then for 2 months maybe, it gets banned when Zuran Orb gets restricted.
I definitely played Type II that year, Vise / Mine decks were pretty popular especially post Ice Age. Necro wasn't recognized right away as busted because so many decks played 4 Vise (Tower was restricted). When Vise got hit that Winter all I remember for the next 2 years was getting Hymned, Strip Mined and Necro'ed.
July '97 4th and all its mistakes are gone replaced with 5th (and Necro again!).
Do you mean to say Channel was banned because of T2 or T1.5? I can see a lot of early restrictions happening because of 1.5, I have never heard of one in T1 because of T2.
If this is the case, could you explain why? I've never played T2 and I don't understand how this would interact.
Oh yeah, in the dark past Type II had a restricted list bound to Type I. There were actually restricted cards in Type II. Like Channel, Mind Twist, etc.. Mind Twist was absolutely banned because of Type I, Channel may have been a confluence of both formats wanting to be rid of the 'Oops!'. Keep in mind we are pre-Force of Will.
I specifically recall the Mind Twist debates raging on usenet. The Channel debate I don't remember quite as well other than I think it happened first, I could dig around and refresh my memory.
I was mostly posting to point out that @thecravenone was wrong even though I still love him like a brother.
My preference is selection bias I guess.
I'm glad we're finally understanding each other.
Sure but to say players have preferences and get salty about it and call it selection bias is almost as big a waste of text as my reply here. No shit.
I want to pose the simple question: Why do you think that Vintage has a restricted list?
WotC wanted a format where everything that could be legal would be legal. No true bans, so a restriction is the only way to reign in power-level.
But this wasn't always true (gets up out of rocking chair). For example Mind Twist and later Channel were outright banned in 1996. It still isn't true for Shahrazad and formerly Divine Intervention both of which are banned. Actually I think Shahrazad was already banned in the first event I played at that had a print out of the restricted list. I side more with @Smmenen here (ouch!) even back then the overwhelming purpose, even in the old days, was to ensure a reasonable spectrum of decks in a competitive setting. When Mind Twist was legal, even as a 1 of, the DCI felt that deck construction and in game tactics were largely centered around this 1 card. Channel being banned may have had to do more with the mixing of the newly created Type II format but it had detractors in Type I circles as well. They don't always get it right in some peoples views (mine included).
These hatebear and hatebear-like discussions are really just becoming tedious displays of selection bias.
What is a hatebear like discussion?
We have Leovold, Kambhal now Lavinia. While I recognize they pale in comparison to eternal powerhouse Tacotli Honor Guard they are examples of cards I'd rather have seen symmetric. Since around Thalia 1.0 it's been trending this way with some exceptions like SotL, Containment Priest and Red Eidolon.
I would prefer cards that make the deck builder create the shell of the deck around a taxing / punishing constraint rather than just shuffle them into the same tired 4xforce, 4xskillstep, 4xPreordain, Nx Blue Restricted 45 card stack. My preference is selection bias I guess.
Echoing the sentiment on Lavinia is WotC just done with symmetric hate effects? Not that it's likely with this card but the Blue Stew (tm) just co-opts the cards into their sideboards. Like Kambahl which would be a great core creature in a "new" deck it just becomes a boring hoser in a PO mirror.
RIP Gaddock Teeg and Thalia
@juice-mane said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:
It's sad to see the manufacturer of this card game continue to explore the effects that amount to: 'you can't do this' plastered on creatures. Cards that reduce possible interactions between cards tend to contribute to boring games.
If they absolutely needed to print yet another prohibitive card like this, why make it a creature? It's comical to imagine a scenario where this creature with such powerful magical abilities is hitting/stabbing you for 2 life points a turn while simultaneously retaining enough focus to exercise her immense magical powers. At least add a clause where the abilities are turned off when the creature is tapped. Even comic book superheroes need to focus when channeling their powers.
I think I'm fine when they are symmetrical. These one way Leovold effects are stupid and lazy.
If you want synergy with her you want alot of 2s that benefit from a flicker. SCM is really a 3 drop. And you absolutely want Terminus, and probably Predict and some bullets to use with your Misstep Bait tutors like Entreat. I think going creature less makes more sense with her. There are quite a few 2 mana artifacts and enchantments that ETB do stuff.
And legacy has basically been portrayed as Brainstorm vs Chalice of the Void.
Restricting Mental Misstep is not going to make Blue decks less counterspells dependent or other decks less "lock based" (though ravager shops is pretty damn fast for a lock-based deck).
It will allow combo decks to more effectively combo and provide for less interactive games of magic.
And I'm sorry, if your deck folds to Mental Misstep, it's probably not a very good deck to begin with.
Yeah, besides you can just cram 4 Misstep in your deck that folds to Misstep. Problem solved.
The 1 mana cards you list aren't "good" cards only in comparison to Misstep because they cost mana. If Welder was Gutshot and Duress was 2 life they'd be playable.
@aelien it's weird. Magicians spend mana to cast spells. Sometimes they resolve. As for Dark Ritual, it was around for 20 years before Misstep. Rituals still struggle vs. Spheres and the million hate permanents they've printed in the last 5. Thoughtseize resolving is also great, it can really help non Sphere non Blue decks soow down combo and even Shops (on the play at least).
No one from my playgroup has any interest in traveling to vintage tournaments because of the state of the format, with Mental Misstep and PO being specifically cited. Misstep is tired and PO amounts to watching someone jerk off in front of you while you just sit there and beg them to hurry up and finish so you can get on with your life.
There was a similar problem firing Vintage in Atlanta. The TO restricted Misstep and it's fired a couple of times now. I do miss that skill intense Misstep subgame though. Turns out with 1 Misstep the 100 other counters that are good vs. outcome can actually resolve and people have room in their non-Thorn decks for them because every non combo blue deck doesn't have to start with 4 force, 4 skillstep.