It's worth noting that you probably still want 0 cards in your library when you cast Thassa's Oracle, as they can still cast whatever random removal spell they have to kill the Oracle in response to the trigger, which will most likely make your devotion to blue 0.
It isn't so difficult to cast this normally for 6 and have it resolve into your graveyard, at which point the potential card advantage becomes extreme. It is incredibly unique in that aspect, as most other draw 7's need help/luck to chain, this only needs mana.
I think this card is a little too slow though. Yeah it’s card advantage and a tutor so it will have some viability but I don’t view this as better than Trinket Mage, which doesn’t see a whole lot of play. Trinket was always good because it can get Lotus or Top. Treasure Mage won’t have the same impact because paying 3 to tutor for a two mana card is just so slow.
Nailed it here. If Trinket Mage didn't fetch Lotus it would be incredibly hard to justify.
As an aside, as long as Karn is around it would be hard to convince me that there is a better way to play Time Vault.
@chubbyrain said in [MH1] Wrenn and Six:
Or Time Walk plus another Wrenn is just Vault Key. And Ancestral plus Retrace is just...wrong. Only thing you can’t do is alternate cost Force or Gush. Still pretty insane.
Time Walk? Laaame. Let's retrace Smallpox instead hehehe. Seriously though, what a wonderfully broken little card, pushed to the limits but (seemingly) not past.
Obviously the shell has a lot to do with it, but a question to anyone who was playing Lavinia Survival; did you find that Mox Diamond was a huge liability or not? If there are potentially 8 extra forces that kill it does that affect your answer?
Green creature with a bad tribe scares me a lot less than the other 3 existing options.
I guess you can just build the hate beariest of hate bear lists with 4 of these, 4 green suns zenith, 4 elvish spirit guides, 4 dryad militant or something. I dont know, still loses to counterspell.
This seems like a silly way to think, as most things lose to counterspell. Also cavern exists and has no problem naming Ouphe if you're that concerned
I should preface this by saying that I've only thought of this card meaningfully in a Doomsday shell.
This thing is Doomsday's new best friend, and does almost everything that Doomsday wants to do. The only things this doesn't completely do from a protection standpoint is preclude REB/Blast, though it does force them to remove Teferi with it, potentially still giving you a window. I suppose it also can't deal with 2 lock pieces, though Doomsday is somewhat resilient in the first place. It is also fairly obscure to tell how well it fits into Doomsday's curve, which is incredibly tight post-gush restriction, but being that Doomsday would quite often be a 4-mana play without Teferi already in play, I suspect it will slot in well, or at least adequately. The +1 is probably not likely to be used well, but could potentially allow you to Thoughtseize on their draw step without fear of repercussion (this actually beats REB/Blast assuming they were tapped out, but that is unlikely to happen). This train of thought may lead to playing more Thoughtseize, which I feel may not be a terrible idea to start.
Assuming Teferi isn't dealt with, it will also draw you into your combo next turn free of charge while potentially removing whatever is stopping you (with no possible responses other than Ballista/Ravager shenanigans). Essentially, for Doomsday at least, this is Defense Grid + Top + Abrade in 1 card with more inevitability, more efficiency, and as a bonus pitches to Force. These points may lead the deck at large in a more controlling direction which, while slowing it down, should actually give it an edge in the current meta, assuming the number of Wastelands doesn't pick up.
I should also say that I don't necessarily think that this card is such a slam dunk for other archetypes, including similar storm builds.
well, after reading the comments in this thread I have just one thing to say: I'm glad most of you all are not in charge of R & D. People are ripping this card apart without even understanding that it really only answers unfair plays in the first place. If you don't think playing a Dig Through Time for UU without really blinking an eye is broken as shit, then could you find it within yourself to kindly F-OFF! Would you?? Wait. . . have you done it?!! NO?? Please do. Like I'm sooo sick of this BS. It wasn't lazy design. It was sufficient design to actually make an effing difference vs. all the nonsense blue has received over the past 5 years. It actually DOES something relevant vs. PO AND Jeskai, providing a traditional human deck with a much needed 2-drop to supplement Thalia. It also plays very nicely with Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary. I think this card makes such a deck a much more competitive prospect and SO WHAT IF IT IS?? I really just want to give every complaining character in this threat the tiniest Violin to help assuage their delicate egos. Magic is ever evolving. Vintage is ever evolving.
LEARN. . .
TO. . .
ADAPT. . .
YOU. . .
FREAKING. . .
Blue decks having Force of Will and cards that just draw them into more of that card have enjoyed having answers for virtually everything all the time. If Cavern of Souls makes that proposition slightly less certain then GREAT!!! It's about time that Force of Will got taken down a peg or two. Maybe start playing real 2-for-1s and run some Wastelands? Like, there are a lot of options. Jimminy Christmas!
Calm down buddy. I don't think Lavinia is impossible to deal with or game-breaking in any way, I just don't agree with this style of design. Again, I think Cavern is my real issue (uncounterable rainbow mana?) because even if I decide to deal with it my opponent has most likely already produced at least 1 threat and Wastelanding it is probably going to be negative tempo at that point. That said, it exists, so I will deal with it, but I do not like the way it causes my opponent and I to basically ignore each other.
I also disagree with your Dig Through Time example. Not only has Dig been restricted for very, very good reason, it also (usually) takes a staggering amount of thought and sequencing to get to the point of casting it for UU, and even then it is easily countered (non-blue decks have Pyroblast).
Well, most cards in Vintage are non-symmetrical from Island to Paradoxical Outcome. Why should it be different when it comes to creature?
Hmm, I wasn't trying to imply that it should be different, instead that all cards should be designed with interactivity in mind. Paradoxical is an interesting example because it imposes severe restrictions to your deckbuilding ability, much like Thalia or Oath of Druids. Lavinia can pretty much slot in anywhere, particularly the sideboard of control decks, and I can picture it making the control mirror abysmal to play in. I recognize that there is a lot of personal bias here because I find the vintage control mirror to be the most engaging, thoughtful, and grindy match of magic that I've found thus far, but that's my opinion.