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@botvinik said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

@protoaddict

No, I spent hundreds of dollars on MTGO and continue to pour money into the hole. I know if they took down legacy, vintage, and modern cues I would just quit and play cocatrice instead ,and I think a lot of people are like me.

MTGO is a vast minority of the player base considering arena is a thing, plus EDH via webcam. I mean it seems to me that queue times for most formats on MTGO outside of sealed are pretty long lately.

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@thewhitedragon69 said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

They also make 95% of their money in Standard, so expending any effort on anything that won't make them huge wads of cash is not on their radar.

I don't think this is true anymore for a number of reasons.

  • I think EDH is actually the biggest mover of cards now, and the reason cards get cracked.
  • I believe they have higher margins and lower R&D costs on commander decks than a standard set. Likely the same for a masters set.
  • Direct sales for Secret Lairs plus virtually no R&D costs, just art, means they probably have the highest profit margins on these, even if they sell less of them.

The main point still stands that WOTC really has no financial incentive to support older formats other than maintaining the appearance of good will towards enfranchised players. It would be bad for them if they suddenly did not have a format that supported cards that are banned everywhere else and would likely affect the secondary market on the cards, but all things equal that is more of a PR thing than a profits thing.

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@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

That’s the point. They can’t handle legacy or vintage and the players can’t afford the $10,000+ to play. My proposed format could replace both.

I think conflating these 2 formats is incorrect and trying to create one format to replace both of them that is in effect neither of them will not work, full stop. People playing legacy are not just people who cannot afford all the vintage cards, and vice versa. Each audience is unique and wants different things of the formats.

Vintage players want to play vintage because of the availability of these powerful cards, even as singleton. You take that away from the format completely and you lose the whole reason the format exists.

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@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

@protoaddict

It’s an alternate to legacy because of the cost of dual lands and other reserved list cards such as Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, etc.

The difference here though is there are very few decks in legacy that flat out require reserve list cards like vintage does and there are lists that function perfectly well without any (Burn). The dual lands are probably the most ubiquitous cards from the RL and they exist in multiple lists, but outside of that most of the RL cards are limited to 1-2 decks. The ones you mentioned are probably the most prominent after the duals and the only decks playing them are either problematic to begin with or just people trying to show off their wallets.

Now personally I think if the problem you want to fix is LEGACY, then the better route is to just ban some stuff from Legacy. Give every dual land the axe, make people play shocks with their fetches and force them to think about the mana they play. Ban LED, no deck that plays with it does anything healthy in the format, let it be a vintage and cEDH staple. I don't think leaving City of Traitors in the format is really the thing that is oppressive to people joining your format.

I don't think WOTC trying to juggle another all sets eternal format when they cannot manage 1 all sets eternal format is a great solve for anything.

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So what is the selling point of this over legacy?

Most vintage decks die instantly because they no longer have the tools that enabled them to be a deck. The most degenerate things are still viable from current legacy, including the slew of blue decks that use no reserve list cards outside of dual lands which can be swapped out for basics and shocks. A few decks like elves or lands die on the vine because they do not have Cradle or Tabernacle anymore. Invariably you then have to ban/restrict certain cards anyway because we know they are too strong like Mental Misstep or Arcum's Astrolabe.

As far as I see it by creating this format you really just get much closer to legacy than you do an alternate vintage. I would sooner think moving vintage to a singleton format would be better, but obviously that does not help with the price issue at all.

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You forgot that we are also getting a D&D set this year which will actually be the first test of this in a standard format. People are not really up in arms since the properties are not so different and because there is already magic in D&D, but it is happening.

I have no idea how this pans out, but since these cards are not standard legal, possibly not legal in other formats pending confirmation, I am curious. I think it is very likely that they make some of these sets insular enough that the power does not translate outside of what is effectively a block format. Maybe just fill the formats with a lot of parasitic cards that are only good in a limited pool, in the same way that some weak mechanics are actually very desirable in limited.

Like I was saying in another thread, if you made a mox variant in the LOTR set but it only made mana to be spent on Fellowship Tribal cards, it would be very powerful in that block but would be next to useless in the rest of the game, so it wouldn't be an issue.

The format that is really going to feel the effects though is Commander.

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@vaughnbros I mean, thematically the ring feels like it would just give you hexproof and unblockable, so kinda a variant on lightning greaves. Maybe if you make it insanely cheap but have it give like a -1/-1 counter every turn it could balance out?

Maybe poison counters could represent Sauron's corruption. The palintir could be like "Get a poison counter: Scry 2".

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@lienielsen said in Magic Universes Beyond:

@protoaddict

They can just print a card like this:

“CARDNAME”
0
Artifact
Add one green mana
CARDNAME cannot be in the same deck as Mox Emerald

This is almost the exact same example that Maro gave some time ago when he was explaining ways they would never be able to get away with circumventing the reserve list. I think he also ruled out doing snow covered true duals.

Even with the extra copy on it that card is a functionally identical reprint because the exclusionary text would also apply to the original card, meaning it by definition also says "this card cannot be included in a deck with the other card". If you made it snow it would not be functionally identical, though it may actually be functionally superior if you did that, but again they said they would not "cheat" that way. It would also have a similar effect on the price tag of the original, which was the reason the reserve list exists.

No to get away with it I think they have to print functionally superior or parallel cards, which is very hard to conceive of. Like I guess you could make the one ring literally be a lotus that spent for 4 mana but you have to exclude other 0 mana artifacts from your deck or something. Or you could print a Space Marines Mox that tapped for rainbow mana but could only be used on Space Marines tagged cards or something.

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@lienielsen said in Magic Universes Beyond:

Maybe this will leave the door open for functional reprints of power 9

I fail to see how they can ever do it. What exactly does a functional reprint of a real mox or dual land look like, and how does that not break vintage when you add+1 mox to the restricted list for shops and PO? The only way to fix the supply issue is actual reprints, either just straight up or as skins like they did with Godzilla, and with the Reserve list as is that can't happen.

Or lets just say they take the concept of the 1 ring and just make it a legendary colorless mox that deals you a point when tapped (To represent the bad part of it). That in no way fixes the problem, it only deepens it.

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@thewhitedragon69 I have to believe the one ring would be equipment, and knowing WOTC it'll give "corruption counters" whenever it's used or something like that. But the Palantir could be something like this.

I also feel like they will lay off planeswalkers. Maybe Gandalf and Saruman because thats is what they sorta do if you know the stories, but it's too cannon breaking.

The real question is do they bring companion back for Sam?