Perhaps one of the factors they considered when restricting COTV? Humans are being given all sorts of gifts this set.
Does anyone seriously disagree that the Pillars of 98 are really critical to what makes Vintage Vintage instead of Powered Legacy?
I do. Being powered alone to me is enough of a change from the legacy meta that it validates the formats existence. But to be realistic, there are more than just power cards in the format that change the contours of it from legacy.
Actual Power - Moxen, Lotus, timewalk, timetwister, recall
Restricted cards not in legacy that enable prominent strategies in vintage - Demonic tutor, Fastbond, Vampric tutor / Imp seal, Yawgs will, Wheel of fortune/Windfall, Academy, Sol ring, library of Alexandriam, even more.
Cards that are super powerful that are allowed without restriction in vintage - Shops, Bazaar, Survival of the Fittest, Misstep, etc
I contend that the presence of power alone is enough to define the format and are really the only pillars it could have to still be a unique format, but it goes far beyond that. The very presence of any one of some of these restricted cards is enough to enable some lists and disable others that would have otherwise been lists in vintage. it would not be different if you only had 1 shops instead of 4, the formats would still be unique and play out very differently.
I mean, case and point, I think that mono red burn is a tier one list in legacy because of its speed, yet in vintage where you can make it even faster because of lotus and mox ruby its not even a list because the power alone changes the scope of the entire format.
@Brass-Man If we only posted threads about cards that met that criteria this board would be vacant of posts save for people congratulating people for tourney wins and talking about when the 37th revision of the Gush book is coming out.
I think there is a line, but most threads are not devoid of content, its not like people are posting draft filler here, and most people can look at a card without play test and at least understand from heuristic metrics if it is worth discussion, not necessarily if it will or won't see play.
Especially with Traxos just having come out, being able to ramp up counters and toss them on a massive trampler seems insane
I find some unstated irony in the fact that you have issue with Ravager putting counters on Traxos but not the land that lets you play Traxos consistently ahead of schedule.
I disagree with ravager.
1 - I cannot tell you how many times I had heard the following from people on these boards: "Workshops may need to be restricted, but lets restrict Lodestone and see what happens".... "well, workshops is still too powerful, Workshops may need to be banned but lets add Thorn to the list" .... "well workshops is still too strong but lets add ravager to the list and see what happens."
At what point do we stop moving the goalposts for this one card? I've said it before and I think I'll say it again, I don't think there is any other non restricted card in the format that has caused as many restrictions as Workshops.
2 - Ravager has answers that workshops does not. Stifle is actually a powerfully demoralizing play against the modular trigger. The issue there becomes that stifle sees no play because of Mental misstep right now and is something the workshops deck can handle because of sphere effects which are powered out but, you guessed it, workshops.
At the end of the day I just don't see ravager being that big of a deal. The deck was strong before anyone used ravager and the decks it faced were very similar to what the field looks like now.
I'm ok with fastbond in the abstract, less so because your justification for it includes the prominence of Mental misstep. If MM gets to the point where it needs to go (as some very openly speculate it will) then I suspect Fastbond would have to go as well.
This feels really winmore to me. 4 mana do nothing on its own enchantments do not have any track record to speak of in the format, I actually can't think of any other card in the format right now that does nothing on its own, to the point where I think this is actively bad.
Then, assuming you land it and it's not blown out from a 1 mana counter, you need to resolve another spell, best case scenarios is you resolve Ancestral and draw 6, but you only net 4 cards on the first exchange and you have spent 5 mana, 4 at sorcery speed. A 5 mana voltron to make a slightly better Tidings does not ring out as a winning strategy.
I actually think this card is bad also because it takes up a slot that could have just been a draw spell. Draw spells tend to lead into other draw spells and resolving ancestral into treasure cruise or Ancestral into Snapcaster seems way more reasonable and mana efficient to me than this.
There is a very real possibility that LSG was banned for aesthetic purposes more so than any other factor. Vintage is now being covered in streams and videos and WOTC wants the format to feel more like the other formats when it comes to that. Because WOTC can make money off of streams for vintage, more so than selling cards they cannot reprint.
Regardless of if LSG was balanced or not, some games against a turn 1 lodestone last 5 turns of one player attacking and casting rocks and another player saying land go. Even if these are perfectly acceptable situations for a balanced vintage for the players that happens an acceptable percentage of the time, they give the perception of turn one wins with no interaction to a viewer.
WOTC does not want to stream games that look both boring and like a blow out, they want games that have both players playing over powered cards at each other on camera that make for good TV. They banned second sunrise in modern for this exact reason.
I will never fail to be amazed by people defending Mishras Workshop as some sort of untouchable format pillar and instead just trying to restrict everything around it.
I cannot name another card in vintage that remains unrestricted that has caused so many restrictions because of its legality. One could make the argument that Trinisphere, Thorn, Lodestone, and to some extent Chalice are all on the list either entirely or in part because of the power of workshops. Maybe even Mana crypt. Thorn and Lodestone are mostly innocuous enough in any non shops deck, if they see play at all. Now we are discussing getting rid of Ravager or Inspector, 2 cards that are utterly unimpressive on their own. Ravager has been in the format for how many years without any real presence, and how good would it be without fast mana to ramp it out along with it's pals. Like you say in your article it is a card with inherit risks associated with it. Inspector has the potential for crazy plays, but only if it hits the table early via consistent early game mana, and only one land in the list has the consistency to do that by itself. Even the example given in the article of a stifling turn one play of shops, inspector, sol ring, Sphere cannot happen without shops, any other configuration requires 1 additional card to generate enough mana or lotus, which is as we all know, restricted and cannot be used on subsequent turns to finish off your opponent like shops can.
How many cards on that list are there because of solely because of Bazaar? Or Oath? Standstill? I guess you could make the argument that Brainstorm and Ponder are there because of Force of Will maybe? Library because Island is legal?
That being said I don't disagree about the blue arms race, and perhaps Misstep does need to go, but I contend it may be because of factors other than balancing shops.
I would be curious to know how many of the games you played did not have you land a turn one shops or lotus, or a shops at all, and what the win rate on those matches were.
So eldrazi decks looking to splash basics for colored mana (or wastes for bloodmoon) and anything using crucible just found a new best friend. This seems to me like it could be a real player, as the cycling is uncounterable outside of stifle and it feeds delve mechanics. I will certainly be picking up 4 copies of this card, I think people really should be on the look out.
I don't think the point of this thread was ever to really dissect what is good or bad in the Standard meta but rather to speak about how mistakes in that format have long reaching effects on non rotating formats and the overall health of the game.
Most of this thread boils down to this: Any mistake in standard, be it actual or perceived, will have a negative result on vintage.
For the most part I think that is correct.
The setup to make it work seems insanely hard.
You first need 3 clues, that probably means building your deck around this, as just having Trackers is not fast or reliable enough.
Then you need to spend 6 mana in a single turn to pop the clues, or you need to draw and play a sacrifice outlet, meaning more slots devoted to this card.
Then you also need a creature card in your graveyard.
And if you do all this, you need to wait another turn to win as you only get the creature EoT.
You don't have to sac the clues to themselves, you can toss them to Ironworks or Ravager.
Tracker +1 fetch is already 2/3 lands you need. You can also get cute with Academy Manufactor, Karak Clan Iron works, Dockside extortionist, etc.
I'm not saying it is a deck unto itself or anything, but clues keep becoming more and more widespread and the effect is novel and powerful. Many clue cards as well as this do not get in the way of Oath either.
Maybe I was wrong about Stranger things. This is a leak from China so take it with some salt but it is supposedly the secret insert. The ability to reanimate any of your creatures off a land is I think unprecedented, and getting and sacrificing clues is not a particularly large hurdle to overcome when you look at tireless tracker. You can't put the drazi or Blightsteel into play as it is not instant speed, but grizzle is fair game.
Probably too slow, but It is novel enough that it probably merits a look?
@stormanimagus No it means I did not feel like listing out every deck and variant that exists in the format.
But you seem to have gotten my point with out admitting it. It is not for every matchup, therefore it is a sideboard card at best, and stays out of your 75 in many other situations.
Can you reasonably cast it turn 1? If not it loses a ton of utility. I think this is very match dependent and even more so if you cannot land it turn one.
I think PO is like the only matchup where this thing is a true nightmare, and may be better served as a sideboard card than not.
This is where I take issue with your comparison SoK was available in significant print for months during which time more would be printed if shortages developed and the cards could be extensively played and tested in and outside tournaments. Secret Lairs are available for a weekend, not available through events like draft, not available through standard retailers, no additional will be printed, and they give wizards a perverse incentive to print good cards in the hardest to get way. At a point a quantitative difference in availability becomes a qualitative difference in availability
I am going to disagree with you here simply because the number printed are reflective of the demand, pure and simple. Yes SOK had a larger print window but was also during a period of time when magic literally almost died, and the player base was much lower than it is now. TWD is a set that literally a bunch of resellers bought 10 of at a time to sell them on the secondary market, and was at the time the number 1 selling Secret Lair (maybe still is?) If the players wanted to get in and buy 10 copies each or any given secret lair there would be literally 2.5 times the supply needed for the playbase.
I also genuinely do not know anyone who could tell me "I did not oder the set because I could not get to a computer for a day", and there was plenty of warning that it was coming to give people time to plan around or set up a shill buyer. It isn't even the case anymore as the SLs have a week to a month long window now.
I know WOTC does not release numbers to the public typically but I would not be shocked to hear that there are more copies of Rick in circulation than there are any given rare from a poorly selling set like SOK or even just earlier non reserve list sets that did not have the player base that the game does now. Rick is something like a $50 card and the rest of the stuff in the set is mostly chaff, and I don't think that is too bad a price point for most serious players who either want him for EDH or for Legacy humans, considering there are plenty other cards in those decks that cost much more.
If anything, the absolute biggest issue with mechanically unique Secret Lairs like TWD is that there are no non foil copies for people who are serious about playing them in a tournament setting, and even that seems to have been rectified now with the Stranger Things set having both versions.
@botvinik They print mechanically unique cards all the time now out of proper standard legal booster sets.
Planeswalker decks (when they did them)
None of them are reserve list and none of them are unlimited printings either. Most people have more issues right now getting Dockside Extortionist than they do anything from Walking dead.
There certainly is a threshold for when a mechanically unique card becomes an issue, but it is almost always going to be because of underprinting than how it was released. If you needed to do something to get the secret lairs that was not just spend money, win a raffle or play x number of tourneys or something, then yea it would be a problem, but it is not the case.
Secret Lair is a product that is sold to the public on a limited time frame. Saviors of Kamigawa was a product that was sold to the public on a limited time frame. I'll bet you the availability of Oboro, Palace in the Clouds is more hurtful to any given eternal format of magic than the accessibility of anything from Walking Dead.
Nice to see that there will not be mechanically exclusive secret lair cards.
I remain of the mindset that it was never going to be a big deal if there were. Walking dead sold so many copies you can readily get them and the secondary market prices on them are no more out of line than any of the other secret lairs which are just swag copies of existing cards.
There are probably more Ricks floating around out there for most players that want them than there are ABU duals, Tabernacles, Wheel of Fortunes, etc. And to be able to buy the card you want for your deck for 30-40 dollars a copy and then get a buncha extra stuff to sell back is still cheaper than many standard mythics right now.
interesting things to note for edh, mostly just due to the mana costs of the cards and the fact that they have partner-horsemanship:
-it is now possible to play a 5 color deck with 2 commanders
-it is now possible to play a 4 color deck with lurrus as companion
also i believe the non-branded versions of these cards are going to be in 1-in-8 new capenna set boosters. overall i think we can just ignore them in vintage.
Is that really the number? I was under the impression that it was 1 in 8 cards printed from the list, but that the list was already one in every 4 packs, there for it was 1 in every 32 set booster which is less than 1 per box on average.
Seems blessedly devoid of things you need to buy for the format and largely for EDH alone. I would not be shocked if a card came up and suddenly had some niche value somewhere (Maybe Will in a flickering death and taxes build?) but overall you can ignore the set unless you want to get into the MTG Finance of it all.
The reason I have rather little hope for this card in vintage is the decks that can use that body effectively, get creatures in the yard fast enough to activate it, and make black mana to cast it, would much rather have cards in the yard for things like the gak then cast a 2 mana 4/4. This is a bad sign but the ability is interesting and maybe saves it? Unfortunately, no delver would really like its spells back in it's hand but hogaak wants them in the yard to take advantage of. Keep in mind I am not a zombie lord my skill lies far more with the doomsday decks so I may just be wrong but this one looks like a miss to me.
Gak requires far more of a commitment to include, since the delve number is so high. This needs 3 creatures which you can typically just get in the yard through course of play. There are probably also some shenanigans you can do with Anger and the like to make this more aggressive. It reminds me a little of Soulflayer, which has always been a pet card of mine, in that it needs a creature heavy shell to work, but as pointed out Wraith and Deaths shadow both work great here as well.