"Pitch Dredge is the worst thing to happen to Vintage this decade." - 2015 Vintage Champion Brian Kelly
Great article written by Brian DeMars, long time Vintage player and lover, features other big names in the Vintage community along with some thoughts from people on Twitter.
Just wanted to make sure that this article got some attention, it is written by Nico Bohny, a great Vintage player and streamer who goes by shir kahn on MODO and streams on twitch at https://www.twitch.tv/busterbohny.
@Stuart You definitly want to fit some Arcanist in there. The card is insanely strong and can create massive CA over just one or two turns while being super flexible due to the fact that it can vastly increase your clock with Bolts. I think you may also want some of the Plows MD and probably some more MD artifact hate but I am no expert.
@BlindTherapy My point with winning G1 against Priest was more that it was possible whereas with most lists it would not be.
bloodghast most of the time, and the card is amazing, like a narcomoeba you can use turn after turn.
When you put it that way it actually makes it sound much better than I initially thought.
Hardcasting pharoah sounds harder than hardcasting Troll, given the color requirments, and troll is bigger.
It was because I was low on cards in library and I happened to draw a Pharaoh, also black is easier to get than green because of Dakmore.
I'm interested to hear that pharoah has been good for you; what has it been good against?
Against things like Eldrazi it can really slow them down as it essential comes down to a topdeck war of can they draw 20 power worth of castable creatures before you find your anti-hate.
Chill dodges priest and cage, falling victim to everything else. Dredge doesn't generally need much help beating priest and cage in my opinion, as the yard is still there once you remove the hate.
While in general I would agree I think it is a bit more complex than that as the games where they have the resources to maintain their GY nearly continuously it allows you to take advantage of weak points or mistakes much more effectively and efficiently since they are already at a lower life. In the Hogaak version I would imagine this is even more amplified by the inclusion of HO, Bloodghast and Hogaak as these all become much better at crossing the finish life as a one to four turn clock then a three to ten turn clock.
@Brass-Man @ChubbyRain I could be a little bit crazy but I feel like Wren makes a Naya Orcish Lumberjack + Knight of the Reliquary deck. Obviously Knight is really good and becomes better when you can reuse the lands you sacrificed to tutor up more or just reuse them for other purposes and Lumberjack helps you push ahead on mana in a deck that probably would want to not play many mana accelerators which is nice while not necessarily hurting you long term because of Wren. I know Chubby has played a few GWx Knight of the Reliquary decks so maybe he could brew something up with Wren and Knight?
@ChubbyRain After watching a few VoDs of the deck, thinking about it, and testing a bit on MTGO with a similar list I have a few questions and comments.
First of all my questions:
- How did you come about making the deckbuilding decisions you did? What prompted you? What was your reasoning behind some of the decision?
- What changes did you make during testing? What cards were you really impressed with or were unimpressed with?
- What are the strengths and weaknesses of this version of Dredge in your opinion?
Now, through my testing, thinking and watching I have found Dakmor Salvage, Creeping Chill, Force of Vigor, Vengeful Pharaoh to be insanely impressive. While I have not had a chance to test Hogaak and Bloodghast I think the Hogaak seems very powerful and Bloodghast seems mediocre.
I think Dakmor Salvage is the card I have been most impressed with and it single handedly won me a game against a G1 T1 Priest when I had no other outs and I came very close to winning games 2/3 because of it. Dakmor allows you to consistently and reliably get to three mana with the help of Riftstone Portal, allowing you to hardcast Stinkweed Imp and Shambling Shell. Hardcasting these cards with a priest out can win you the game since it ignores their hate completely and can still generate insane value from saccing Shell to put a +1 on Imp and generate a few zombies. Combined with Creeping Chill just one Imp with a single +1 counter can be a 3 turn clock not counting the zombies you may have just produced. I have even been able to hardcast Pharaoh because of the amount of lands I had out.
Vengeful Pharaoh has also really impressed because of how it can allow you to really slow down and control the game, allowing you to find what you need while making it really hard for them to put a clock on you.
Creeping Chill is nice because it dodges a lot of the common hate and allows you to win while committing fewer resources. It also makes the hardcast beatdown much more viable. The same can be said for Hogaak except he is just so much better it seems like.
Interestingly/strangely I have lost quite a few post board games to decking and I think adding an anti-decking card like Progenitus or Emrakul could really help combat GY wipes and help you prevent from decking, allowing you to not only reuse certain cards but also give you enough cards to continue the hardcast beatdown plan.
Let me know of your thoughts or comments!
@ajfirecracker @ChubbyRain I do not really want to get involved in your "discussion" but I respect you both immensely as deckbuilders and players. I think you guys can and should have a constructive conversation and discussion on Dredge because it is possible and it is interesting, but resorting to name calling and insulting each other is not going to help. I think you guys are misinterpreting/misunderstanding each other's arguments and then focusing on only one aspect. This does not seem to be going anywhere and does not seem very constructive as it is a vicious cycle. I think if you guys want to have a good conversation then you guys should start out with a more broad critique and then delving into the nitty gritty to really get some good insights. I think this should go without saying but try and keep the discussion civil and polite. I understand that there has been some disagreement recently on TMD but everybody deserves respect.
@Smmenen Just finished watching your stream, thank you so much for showing us your replays and talking through your deck and decisions. It was really helpful and gives us good ideas on what works and what doesn't. I am interested to see how well Dakmor serves its role since we did not see it do anything in the challenge. Overall, great job playing and building, thank you again