@Megustalabanana First of all you are being extremely rude, and if I knew how I would report you. Second of all I think you are overlooking something extremely important to this discussion, and that is that you cannot have both PO and MD unrestricted at the same time, period. They are both storm cards, one with less potential but less set-up and the other with more potential but more set-up. When you combine the two you have a PO with no set-up chaining into a MD with no set-up either, probably making it the most busted card ever. Even if you do not hit a MD you will likely hit another PO, and then you can probably hit a MD. At his point even with only three artifacts, and assuming you have drawn no more from PO (likely statistically impossible) then your storm is already at least 8 and you have drawn at least 6 cards. I am not saying you are right or wrong, and I do not know enough to have an opinion on whether or not PO and/or MD should be unrestricted or restricted but I will say this:
- Be respectful or no one will listen to you or take you seriously.
- Think carefully about the consequences of each unrestriction and restriction before calling for them.
I just wanted to share this here. I think it is great that we are getting more vintage content, and I am glad to have Vintage 101 back. Thank you @volrathxp.
We had 9 awesome players show up today to duke it out. It was 5 rounds of swiss + top 4.
1st Azorius Landstill
Mark Arce 3-1-1 in Swiss ($75+Playmat+Bye)
2nd Azorius Eldrazi and Taxes
Alex Kibner 3-1-1 in Swiss ($75)
3rd/4th Pitch Dredge
George (@Chronatog ) 3-0-2 in Swiss ($50 or $65)
3rd/4th Esper PO Storm
Andrew Calderon 3-0-2 in Swiss ($50 or $65)
5th Pitch Dredge
Me (@Rat3dE) 3-2 in Swiss (A Broken Heart)
I had a lot of fun today, and I am sure others did to. We had some very powerful wizards come out to play today including the indomitable Cyrus Corman - Gill (@CyrusCG ), and the handsome Matt Sperling. As some of you may have noticed Alex Kibner's decklist does not have 60 cards in it and that is due to him making some decklist errors and I do not know the correct decklist. I can post pictures of all decklist if wanted but I already stayed up late enough doing this, so I will consider it tomorrow.
Below is the metagame breakdown:
2 Pitch Dredge (22%)
Hope we can have some more people come out next time! If you have any questions or I made a mistake let me know.
Hi, I am a kid in HS from the Bay Area who has been lurking here for awhile, and who loves vintage. I watch streams of people like the Atog Lord play on MTGO, the NA Vintage Championship and the Asian Vintage Championship (I just wanted to watch Survival).One thing that saddens me about vintage is that I may never be able to play paper vintage because of the enormous price that vintage decks carry. I was wondering if anybody on this forum plays at my LGS, Eudemonia in Berkeley. I know that they hold monthly vintage tournaments with 15 proxies allowed, and I was wondering if they could tell me if it is worth it to try to be a part of the paper scene in Berkeley. I have never really owned many mtg cards, as I am still quite young, but I am looking into maybe buying into some form of Miracles at the moment in Legacy, which I hope could help me kickstart my playing skill, and card collection so that one day I might be able to participate in a sanctioned vintage tournament. Please let me know what you guys think.
@Smmenen This is really cool. Thank you. This is a beautiful way of showing how restrictions and bannings tend to fix a format for awhile, before it is "solved" again and they have to ban something else. I think in the next few months, once RNA is released we will see if Vintage is really in a sweet spot or if it is just waiting to be solved. Another thing I am interested in is how the new player in the format, Survival will impact people's ability to "solve" the format, and if the MOCS and potential for Pro Tour will bring new grinders and players who will either help accelerate format diversification by bringing other cool new decks in, or may "solve" it once again, potentially leading to yet more restriction.
With TMD's recent redesign I have taken it upon myself to make a few basic primers or collections of information regarding certain archetypes. For Xerox there is a beautiful piece written by the one and only @The-Atog-Lord , also known as Rich Shay. While the thread that this definition is from is off topic, I thought it highly worthwhile to link it and to copy the relevant part. So without further ado here it is:
@The-Atog-Lord said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:
"Turbo Xerox Across Formats
It was 20 years ago that Turbo Xerox theory was introduced to the Magic universe by Alan Comer. Turbo Xerox remains the most powerful approach to building Magic decks today. [...]
Turbo Xerox theory is, briefly, the construction of a manabase with a suite of cantrips. A traditional deck might use 36 spells and 24 land. A deck built around the principals of Turbo Xerox Theory might have 20 land, 28 regular low-cost spells, and 12 cantrips. Here, a cantrip is defined as an inexpensive spell that replaces itself, often with a bit of library manipulation. The idea is that replacing lands with cantrips allows for much greater control over draws as the game progresses. Fewer land means fewer dead draws as the game progresses. More than that, the deck-manipulation cantrips mean that each drawstep is much more valuable to the Turbo Xerox deck than the traditional deck. Turbo Xerox Theory enables decks to maximize each draw step, while minimizing variance each game.
Turbo Xerox decks can be observed wherever there are sufficient cantrips. Consider some of the best decks in Modern. The Grixis Shadow deck has Thought Scour, Serum Visions, Street Wraith, and just 19 land. The Modern Storm deck has 18 land, along with Manamorphose, Sleight of Hand, and Serum Visions. In both cases, these Modern decks minimize their land count and dedicated win conditions in order to make room for cantrips. Similarly, in Legacy, some of the most powerful and popular decks utilize Turbo Xerox Theory. The leading Legacy deck is Grixis Delver, featuring 18 land alongside full sets of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe. The Legacy Miracles deck, before being hit with a Top banning, had Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top. Even the Legacy Storm deck is a Turbo Xerox deck, with a fairly large number of cantrips. What we are seeing is that across large formats, Turbo Xerox Theory is the centerpiece of some of the most powerful decks."
Here is the link to the thread where I pulled that quote if anyone is interested.
@moorebrother1 I think that Vintage is not primarily a digital format. Yesterday in Berkeley we had multiple big names come out for Vintage for a grand total of 19 people! For us it was a lot, and I think there was and will continue to be a lot of enthusiasm and interest in the Vintage format in paper for as long as possible. While I agree that MTGO and paper Vintage have different meta's I think that people play what they want on both platforms. I think that the divergence in meta is a product of the target audience and primary users rather than a lack of innovation or whatnot.
On Sunday, April 14th, Eudo will be hosting an EW Trial where you can win a bye to EW!
On-site registration opens at 11 AM.
Registration at the door will be $30, save time and money by preregistering online.
Sanctioned -- No proxies allowed.
Competitive REL -- A decklist is required.
Swiss rounds with cut to Top 8.
100% prize payout in store credit.
@highsididy1 Yes, but I would image it would be pretty difficult to cast, as it is 4 mana with 2 different colors, which could make it too slow. On the other hand, Thalia 1.0 is only 1 color, 2 less mana, and also helps protect against Xerox and Combo. But I could be wrong, as I could image he could be good in a BUG survival shell with DRS.
@ChubbyRain I appreciate you asking, and I assume that you are talking about for streaming. With that in mind, I tend to enjoy watching every kind of deck, and I think that they all have their own intricacies that I feel I can appreciate as I watch someone figure them out. Now having recently bought into Pitch Dredge, I should probably try to spend some time watching some to help myself learn, but I understand how one might not want to play or watch it. The thing I was complaining about for streams is that despite having three pretty consistent vintage streamers, they all seem to play similar decks, and that can begin to feel repetitive. I understand that you guys are all practicing for EW and I respect that, but as a viewer anything goes as long as in my total intake their is variety.
@IamActuallyLvL1 I hope PO does not get restricted. I think we are seeing the beginning of the snowball affect of restrictions. I would much rather prefer that they unrestricted Chalice of the Void, as I believe that it would reign in PO, and entice more creative deck building by reducing Mental Misstep's dominance. Now this would probably make shops to powerful, so I would recommend restricting Walking Ballista, because I think that it is much more powerful than people believe. It really hurts all non-shops aggro, hatebear and prison strategies by stripping them of their creatures, being resistant to removal, presenting too much of a threat by itself, and having to much synergy with the shops deck in general, and especially with Arcbound Ravager. In my mind these restriction would welcome more diversity in the combo archetype by hindering PO, and more diversity in the hatebears/prison archetype by upping their effectiveness and reducing one of shops major advantages. Though this is my personal opinion and I have more thoughts on the B&R list, I am interested to hear anybody's thoughts on this.
@MaximumCDawg I could be wrong, but I think you may have missed my point about Welder. The whole point of running Welder in a Transmute Artifact deck is that you would be able to tutor up things bigger 1 cmc and if necessary not have to pay the cost. Not only does Trinket Mage miss Vault in a build like this, but it also misses every other fatty you could ever want, such as Blightsteel Colossus, Inkwell Leviathan and Sphinx of the Steel Winds (which I think may be underplayed). Now if you are not running those, then you most likely do not need to be playing a Transmute Artifact deck, which is what this whole thread is about.
@wappla I think the question is do you need the help versus Xerox and combo. If you do not, then this is an exercise in futility, but if you do, then what do you cut to ensure that you are not hurting yourself too much in other match-ups. I think one of the most interesting things about the RUG version is that it has the potential to have a great g1 against any deck, and has good sideboard options. I think one route to take the RUG version is slightly less blue cards, but having more filtering like Dack and Sylvan (which has great synergy with Survival because of the shuffle), while also having the full counter suite, allowing you to pressure with Survival combo, disrupt with free counters, dig with Dack, Bazaar, Survival and Sylvan, and have virtual card advantage through things like Wonder, and Ancient Grudge. I think Ancient Grudge has a lot of potential in any red or green survival list, just by virtue of being pitchable in bad match-ups and in good ones, ensuring it is never a bad card. I was also wondering how important black is to some of these survival decks, and if DRS is worth playing without the black source.