@snowydude said:

i am actively considering just scooping any further rounds i get paired against this opponent. which is probably overboard but its better than dropping the event entirely.

Why would you ever do this?

On a tangentially related note, what is up with these extreme responses recently? This isn't MTGSalvation, people should moderate their posts and bring well-reasoned arguments to the table. Not to be nostalgic, but that was really what made the old TMD such an amazing board.

This might be obvious to everybody, but aren't we just seeing the initial effects of something MaRo and multiple other R&D members have said - namely that creatures have been perennially under-powered, and a new-ish stated goal of R&D is to increase this powerlevel to be equivalent to the 'best' instants/sorceries?

If we look back, I remember when Workshop decks would win with Welder beats (e.g., no other creature was needed), or Control Slaver would just essentially make you concede after they activated Mind Slaver. Psychatog was arguably the best creature in vintage, and he is nothing compared to Mentor or Pyromancer today. Creatures were so poor I happily played Faerie Conclave in Standstill. Goblins was probably the exception, and it pretty much was only played by people who couldn't afford power.

I think the Eldrazi was an attempt from Wizards side to create a create type with serious power, and a type that was flexible enough to go into multiple colors and wasn't artifacts-based. While BFZ and OGW weren't exciting standard sets, they have re-defined vintage. They have also vastly expanded white, primarily by extending its credo of 'answers to everything, but no way to get those answers.'

We will have to get used to creatures becoming more of a force as Wizards tinker with solving this historic imbalance. I personally think that we will see vintage strategy evolve along new and previously unexplored axes.

@Lesbimagical said in R&D is completely incompetent:

@Brass-Man This, wholeheartedly. Maybe this is to see if combo can exist in Standard, safely. Either way, Old School & Vintage aren't going away. We're existing in an area entirely unsupported by Wizards as it is, other than being thrown a bone or two in every set for Vintage.

I disagree very much with the last statement. Vintage and new cards/standard are as entwined now as I can remember. The power level of current creatures alone is so high that Vintage has significantly shifted towards creatures as the main threat and base of most decks.

Mentor and Pyromancer created new archetypes, the former is arguably the deck to beat these days. Eldrazi is a strong deck in all metagames these day, and via Jaco even created a budget list that is tournament viable. TKS is a defining creature of most artifact decks. Paradoxical decks are on the rise. The Thalias have pushed a viable hatebear strategy, and are very important in white Eldrazi. Leovold just powered Rodrigo Togores into the VSL. These are cards from pretty much the last three years, and are constituting the majority of decks being played. A ton of other new cards are actually viable, or at least being seriously tested in vintage.
Back in the day there were very few threads on TMD about new cards simply because many sets didn't even have one serious candidate for inclusion in the metagame.

While I agree with Brassman, and disagree with the hyperbole of the OP and others, Vintage is very dependent on the new cards coming out these days, possibly more than even during Urza's block. Thus the health, and continued development, of the game, is crucial for Vintage and its evolving metagame.

@Serracollector said in Notes on the State of Vintage, Jan 2017:

Restrict Workshop, and Unrestrict Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere. Keep Chalice Restricted. Restrict Paradoxical Outcome and Gitaxian Probe. Watch the game completely change, for the better.

I don't see there is any reason to restrict Paradoxical Outcome - it hasn't put up amazing results and the decks so far are very beatable?

Workshop is weird in the way that if it didn't exist and was printed, I don't think anyone would argue a second that it shouldn't be restricted. It has just been available for so long that it is really hard to see that change.

I'm going for raw power here. I think it is too early to determine if Monastery Mentor is one of the most broken.

Yawgmoth's Will
Tolarian Academy
Mind's Desire
Trinisphere
Tinker

I think any of the above unrestricted would conpletely warp the metagame. Mentor/Pyromancer might be doing that already, though.

Hi, J here from Denmark, now in London. Was active on the board a decade (or longer) ago, managed to get myself banned from the IRC channel a few times and remember being awed at the cool tec from guys like Menendian, Jacob Orlove, Ben Kowalski, BrassMan etc and a bunch of other guys. I also remember Vermont was occasionally taunted.

Starting collecting in revised, sold everything twice, only have a Lotus and some duals now - and my cube.

Whenever I get to a level of disposable income I will attempt to get back in the game. Still reading the site and enjoying the discussions - good to have TMD back!

@spook I actually explicitly calculated the Wiener integral over the whole metagame space considering each card as a continuous functional representing its individual power.

Stupid analogies aside, obviously this is nothing more than watercooler talk.

Agree, Paul is a great addition and a wonderful commentator as well. And he just has this very innate feeling for what to put together deck-wise. Wonderful matches these, I really enjoyed Kai's match tonight against Paul.

I love seeing new/weird decklists that deal with specific matchups. When I played actively I would often see the same guys make it to the top of my LGS' vintage tournaments, and creating weirder decks that could deal effectively with them while not sacrificing too much regular power was often a good way to deal with them and improve your chances.

There is about 50-60 (+?) hours of great vintage in the VSL this season, and many excellent matches with classic archetypes facing off if that is what you want to see. That vintage is not some stale, simple metagame where the same 3-4 decks always wins is - to me - super cool. And Efro is an extremely talented player (much better than most vintage players I've seen) in my opinion, seeing him both metagame like this and make many smart plays was a lot of fun.

It has been stated repeatedly that Wizards to do not take into consideration what happens to eternal formats when making new products. The order of importance is draft, standard, modern. There is no way they are actively gauging the effect the printing of a single hoser in a set will have on vintage, because that is usually the rate at which we are getting bears that might have potential.

@Serracollector said in Notes on the State of Vintage, Jan 2017:

Restrict Workshop, and Unrestrict Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere. Keep Chalice Restricted. Restrict Paradoxical Outcome and Gitaxian Probe. Watch the game completely change, for the better.

I don't see there is any reason to restrict Paradoxical Outcome - it hasn't put up amazing results and the decks so far are very beatable?

Workshop is weird in the way that if it didn't exist and was printed, I don't think anyone would argue a second that it shouldn't be restricted. It has just been available for so long that it is really hard to see that change.

@joshuabrooks said in Asset Appraisal for Divorce:

Well kudos to you for appearing to be honest about the contents. I think most guys would have made a midnight backpack delivery at their friends house.

"What black lotus? That was a lotus petal."

I kept thinking 'nono, it was a blacker lotus'.

Sorry to hear this, I've just seen a beautiful record collection of 30 years torn apart. Good luck.

I'm not basing this on deep analysis, but Lightning Bolt always seem more popular in Europe compared to the states. And that Paradoxical Mentor list looks really cool.

@Protoaddct I wasn't forgetting as much as not mentioning every single example

@Lesbimagical said in R&D is completely incompetent:

@Brass-Man This, wholeheartedly. Maybe this is to see if combo can exist in Standard, safely. Either way, Old School & Vintage aren't going away. We're existing in an area entirely unsupported by Wizards as it is, other than being thrown a bone or two in every set for Vintage.

I disagree very much with the last statement. Vintage and new cards/standard are as entwined now as I can remember. The power level of current creatures alone is so high that Vintage has significantly shifted towards creatures as the main threat and base of most decks.

Mentor and Pyromancer created new archetypes, the former is arguably the deck to beat these days. Eldrazi is a strong deck in all metagames these day, and via Jaco even created a budget list that is tournament viable. TKS is a defining creature of most artifact decks. Paradoxical decks are on the rise. The Thalias have pushed a viable hatebear strategy, and are very important in white Eldrazi. Leovold just powered Rodrigo Togores into the VSL. These are cards from pretty much the last three years, and are constituting the majority of decks being played. A ton of other new cards are actually viable, or at least being seriously tested in vintage.
Back in the day there were very few threads on TMD about new cards simply because many sets didn't even have one serious candidate for inclusion in the metagame.

While I agree with Brassman, and disagree with the hyperbole of the OP and others, Vintage is very dependent on the new cards coming out these days, possibly more than even during Urza's block. Thus the health, and continued development, of the game, is crucial for Vintage and its evolving metagame.

There is also the simple fact that the MtG IP is crazily valuable, and given the broad success and profitability of gaming today, even if WotC did manage to screw it up completely, someone will be there to pick it up and continue. Magic is not anywhere near unique in that regard, either. The incredible thing is really that the game has been as well run as it has, honestly, given the amount of content there has been made.

I would love for this to be a thing in Vintage, but I really doubt it will be.

Why is the typography so bad? I only read it on mobile, but I prefer it to fx MTGSalvation.

If I could, I'd short Imperial Seal. Demand is mainly due to constrained supply as we all know it sees limited play - EDH, Cube, etc. - bunch of these should put serious downward pressure on price.

@BazaarOfBaghdad said:

Khahan - feel free to abnegate this thread if you can't handle the analysis

What are you even talking about dude, you are making very little sense and include a bunch of statistical terms that have very specific meanings and you use them in a very weird way.

I'll abnegate myself out.