@Stormanimagus said in SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?":
@Smmenen said in SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?":
@desolutionist said in SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?":
The sound quality for Kevin's voice is much better in this one. Maybe just a little less reverb next time and it would be perfect. Steve's voice still sounds like he's coming in over the telephone 😅
Later in the podcast, it becomes really choppy, (especially for Steve) like a bad compressor effect setting. I definitely can appreciate the effort toward better sound quality though.
I listened to the first half of the podcast, and not long into the announcements my audio became really poor. Roughly every 7th word was dropped or silent/lost.
That's very frustrating to listen to, so I'm sorry about that. I'm not sure why. I've got a new router, headset, and I record directly into a local recording program, and send it to Kevin, where he mixes both audio. I don't think Kevin even realized how bad it was. There were a couple of places in the audio where I wish he had, during editing, just cut out what I was saying and conveyed the idea anyway, like reading the DCI announcement...
@Stormanimagus said in SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?":
What do you all think about the Preordain restriction idea? I think it's one of the silliest proposals made thus far as most Mentor decks would just run 1 Preordain, 1 Ponder, 1 Ancestral, 1 Brainstorm, 2-4 Git Probe, and 2-3 Serum Visions and not break a sweat. That's my opinion and not backed by data as yet, but please think carefully about what you think limiting decks to 1 Preordain would really accomplish.
This is a topic that needs to be debated more fully at a future point, but here are a few things to say.
First of all, going from 4 Preordain to 1 Preordain and 2-3 Serum Vision or Sleight of Hand is a massive downgrade. So much so that I think most Mentor decks and perhaps Gush decks generally would simply give up the Turbo-Xerox design approach and just increase lands commensurately. In fact, this has already been happening.
To some extent, Gush decks today aren't even playing the Turbo Xerox game plan, although Rich talks it up quite a bit. Playing a 16-17 lands and 4 Moxen and Lotus, with more lands in the board, isn't really "Turbo Xerox" anymore. Turbo Xerox is playing 13-14 lands and a few Moxen.
Second, consider that pretty much all of the Paradoxical Mentor decks run 3-4 Preordain. That's because Preordain is fundamentally insane by itself with Mentor. I posit in this podcast that if Gush were restricted, the Mentor deck would pretty much exist as it is now, except with 1 Gush, 1 Dig, 1 Cruise, 4 Preordain, 2-4 JVP, and be barely slowed. Alternatively, people would just play Paradoxical Mentor with 3-4 Preordain, and the rest of the same cards (1 Dig, 1 Cruise, etc.).
In other words, any Mentor deck you can design will likely play 3-4 Preordain with or without Gush. One of the most abusive things you can do with Mentor in play is cast Preordain. It's sometimes just better than Gush because you are pretty sure to find a good spell to play, and can chain deeper.
So, what I'm saying is that, at the end of the day, Preordain is the best card to simultaneously weaken Gush AND Mentor. It undermines the ability to build decks that efficiently maximize all of Gush's advantages while also slow Mentor.
Finally, Preordain is already often better than Ponder in Gush decks, and Ponder is already restricted. There is a fundamental incongruence of having Ponder restricted and Preordain not. Restricting both (or unrestricting both) would correct that incongruence.
Stephen, the only point you made that makes virtually any sense at all is the incongruence point. This UW Paradoxical Mentor concoction of yours is just YOUR pet deck. Show me results with it and I'll eat my words.
Well, there are a half dozen daily appearances with it, and pretty close versions that have done well in paper tournaments, but that's not my point.
My point was that there will be plenty of viable Mentor centric decks all using 3-4 Preordain if Gush were restricted, and they will barely lose a step. I think restricting Gush will do to Mentor essentially what restricting Dig did: virtually nothing.
Paraodoxcial decks don't tend to run a full playset of preordains cause they don't have room. Look at Reid Duke's list or any "hybrid" PO Mentor list. Many of them are running 1-2 Preordains.
That's not a Mentor deck. Mentor decks run 3-4 Mentor.
Stephen, you are flat wrong if you think that Preordain is the problem.
Well, that assumes there is a problem. Some people believe there is. Some don't.
But, for the sake of argument, let's assume there is a problem. I would restrict Preordain before Gush for the same reason I'd restrict Mox Opal before Paradoxical Outcome. 1) It makes more sense based upon the current B&R list, and 2) if you can weaken the draw engine by other means, and leave it a part of the metagame, and thereby maximize the strategic diversity in the metagame, I would.
Preordain doesn't functionally make mana while drawing cards and doesn't create an unbeatable card advantage with Dack Fayden.
No, but Preordain does other insane things. By looking at potentially 3 cards with each cast, Preordain has unparalled digging power for an unrestricted card.
Look how many Preordains are in the 2014 Vintage Championship Top 8 decklists compared to Gushes. 6 Preordain decks, and 4 Gush decks, and 21 Preordains to 10 Gushes.
Fast forward to 2015 Vintage Champs Top 8:
3 Preordain Decks, 2 Gush decks; 11 Prerdains, 6 Gushes
There was only 1 Preordain and 1 Gush deck in the 2016 Vintage Championship top 8, so that one was a wash, but there is a plenty of evidence that Preordain is both more widely played than Gush and therefore a deeper problem.
Preordain is insane as part of the delve engine. More importantly, it's amazingly good at finding cards like Oath and Paradoxical Outcome - key 4-ofs.
Almost no one has suggested that Preordain is the issue and there's a reason for this.
And no one thought Ponder was a problem either, and very few called for the restriction of Brainstorm. But the DCI restricted both cards.
There is a reason both Ponder and Preordain are restricted in Modern. Non-Vintage players know that these cards are insane.
A card like Serum Visions does a perfectly acceptable job of imitating preordain early game in finding lands. and you can just run 2 copies to allow for not getting flooded with them late game when the card would be undesirable.
I agree that some Gush decks could run Serum Visions, but I don't think many would. BTW, they would run Sleight of Hand over Serum Visions, as that's what we did in 2007, just before Ponder was printed. Serum Visions was legal, but Sleight of Hand was better.
So I contend that turbo-xerox would be still totally possible with something like 2 Serum Visions, 1 Preordain, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm, 3-4 Git Probe. Sure, you might run 1 additional land, but you would still essentially be erring more on the side of turbo-xeron and Gush would still be inexusably broken. So, get off your soap box and start listening to reason. Gush is a uniquely powerful card the likes of which Vintage will probably never see again. It does things that no other card is capabale of and
I agree it does things no card is capable of, but that's true of tons of absurdly powerful cards, like Dig Through Time and Paradoxical Outcome.
, sadly, Mentor was the card that put it over the top. I think we need to either restrict Gush or Mentor, but I'd tend to prefer restricting Gush and I think it would more unequivocally solve the issue of the Gush Mentor Deck.
But that's my point. I don't think it will at all.
I don't think restricting Gush will do anything whatsoever to the power level of Mentor decks. Just look at what restricting Dig did to them. The problem wasn't the printing of Mentor - it was the printing of Cruise and Dig. Those cards, even restricted, are fundamentally problematic to the format now. Because with Cruise, Dig, and Gush, you can restrict all three cards, and you can still use them as a reliable restricted singleton draw engine, and recur them with JVP.
The pivot point in the last Gush era was the printing of Delve spells. Nothing can stop them now.
We are now at a point, after the printing of JVP, where a 1 Gush, 1 Dig, 1 Cruise deck is still going to be just as prevalent as the Gush deck is now.