@psyburat said in [ZRN] Archon of Emeria:
Maverick featuring three Archon of Emeria went 4-2 in this past Sunday's Vintage Challenge, getting 15th out of 44 players and a strong enough finish to get published: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3432375
I know, that's my friend Guli. I helped him finalize his list.
@vaughnbros Agreed. This is why I run 4 Once Upon a Time and 3 Dark Confidant. To me this is analogous to running Preordain into better draw spells. I know it's not a 1-for-1 comparison, but I also run permanents that net me 2 or more-for-1's so I think I make up some ground there. For sure, I haven't quite found the sweet sauce to consistently crush the Wrenn/Oko Walker lists (I'm probably only about 45-55 in those matchups and the top players generally get me) despite running brutal hate like Choke. At the end of the day, that matchup is wayyy too swingy for my taste. It's funny, I tend to beat things on the extreme ends of the "do dumb shit" Vintage spectrum with ease (PO, Dredge, Doomsday, DPS, Golos Shops) and struggle more with the decks that aren't as all in on any one engine (Hogaak-Vine, Wrenn & 6, latest versions of Brian Kelly Oath). It is surely an ongoing frustration of mine, but I'm doing my best to mitigate some of those advantages by learning how to PLAY the matchup better. I think I'm pretty optimized on the CARDS to run to hate on those matchups, but perhaps my play patterns aren't entirely on point.
@botvinik In my latest iterations I have not found Eldrazi to be too much of an issue (barring the most blazing fast openers). I run 3 Knight of the Reliquary (outclasses Smashers pretty quickly) as well as 3 SB Mayor of Avabruck (goes wide). Also, Archon is NOT a dud in the matchup because making their temples and tombs come into play tapped is huge when you have a wasteland or a Knight in play to find wasteland. I also run Tabby + Cradle to help "wrath" the board from the Eldrazi deck. I do have some dead cards as well but I've found the matchup to be very winnable. If I expected an uptick in Eldrazi I'd probably outfit the deck with even more punch for the matchup, but it isn't terribly common on MTGO so I choose to take my chances and do my best to beat it if I face it. For everyone's edification and ease of communication. I will link my list below so people can see what I'm doing.
In a perfect world they would have more 1-drop dudes, but for the time being, I'm having plenty of success with not having as many. The decks I'm crushing the most are actually the most fast decks (PO, Dredge, DPS, Doomsday) because Deafening Silence + Surgical are soo good.
oh, I don't think it's better in Eldrazi. Again, being the aggro means that Thalia 2.0 is very important. It's not just the "your opponents dudes come into play tapped" that matters. It's the brute force approach of Eldrazi that would rather have a 3/2 than a 2/3 regardless of Evasion. Eldrazi is all about doming for 20 juuuust before the opponent recovers. It's actually more analogous to my old 5-C Humans lists that ran like 28 creatures and ran Mantis Rider. That list also just wanted to dome for 20 quickly with a minimal number or true lock pieces.
Oddly enough, I run 3 Archon in my Human Based Cavern deck. The difference is I'm not Eldrazi so I have the ability to just run Fetches + Duals as my Manabase outside of Caverns. Then I use the Caverns (often naming Human) to cast Thalia, Bob, Mayor or Knight of the Reliquary OOOOORRRR. . . Grand Abolisher. I run 3 copies of Abolisher. The Abolisher then makes my Archons uncounterable anyway. In a pinch I just set my second Cavern to Archon and call it a day. I'm on a totally different type of list that can abuse the crap out of the Archon. Archon + Deafening Silence is like 7 Rule of Law effects. It's disgusting and definitely a critical mass of that type of effect to blow people out. That + 3 Abolisher means I often have opponents limited to 1 spell per turn cycle. That is just devastating for so many strategies. So, for MY particular builds this card is a no brainer, and I think he's going to see play for years to come.
Also, in grindy games, the evasion on Archon really matters because you can slowly ping a player to death while they are under mana + spell casting stress.
Guys, I don't care about the semantics here and I don't care about "strictly better" vs. not. The point is this:
This card is leaps and bounds above Thalia 2.0 in almost EVERY practical setting that matters in modern Vintage. I have been running it on MTGO to multiple 4-1 finishes already in leagues and this card is a terror for basically every deck. Thalia 2.0 being a Human and thus easier to run in Eldrazi is just a design constraint and that deck could adapt to run this guy simply by cutting Cavern of Souls. This guy is so much better in so many ways.
- Vs. PO he actually has text. Thalia 2.0 is almost a dud vs. that deck.
- Vs. Doomsday he actually has text and stops the Consult + Thassa Kill. Huuuuge deal. Note that Dark Ritual is a pointless card with Archon in play and Thalia 2.0 does next to NOTHING vs. a Ritual deck and actual nothing vs. the card Dark Ritual.
- Even in the matchup where you claim Thalia 2.0 is better, Hollow Vine, I actually think the Archon is equally good or better because she prevents the condition from happening where Vengevine would even trigger. Vengevine says you have to cast 2 creature spells in the same turn. That is pretty hard when you only allowed 1 spell turn. I can understand that if you are specifically an Eldrazi deck facing Hollow-Vine you might want Thalia 2.0 because YOU are the aggro and want to tap down their blockers, but this is just one matchup and I think the meta is far more diverse than that.
- This card is just insane vs. any blue deck. Having fetches come into play tapped while also preventing Underworld Breach + Lotus Shenanigans is total gas.
I'm not trying to crap all over Thalia 2.0 and stomp on its grave, but I just want to point out that I really think this card dethrones Thalia 2.0 in almost every way that matters in modern Vintage.