Ok, I'll bite. Here's a list I've been messing around with to try and abuse Lavinia:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
3 Stony Silence
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guaridan of Thraben
4 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Ramunap Excavator
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Containment Priest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Runic Armasaur
2 Seeds of Innocence
3 Nature’s Claim
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaea’s Cradle
Sideboard is still a work in progress but I like coupling her with Knight of the Reliquary to attempt to lock opponents off of playing spells.
@juice-mane said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:
I'll move the following post to the Lavinia thread if other users find it distracting:
@vaughnbros I'm willing to accept that no new trend is happening if someone has the time to come up with statistics comparing the percentage of asymmetrical 'hate' cards in older sets to that in newer sets.
But I wouldn't say there is selection bias underlying my perception when I can and have looked at the entirety of the more popular sets, both old and new, that are available to view on Scryfall. That's all insignificant semantics though. I get what you mean.
My impression is that, before this perceived trend started taking place, hate cards often (not always) had counterparts or cards that nullified their effects. For example, Tormod's Crypt has Feldon's Cane, Acid Rain has Tsunami, and so on. The point is that these counterpart cards were made consistently enough that you could expect to see answers for newly printed hate cards with good reason.
Considering the previous few sets, would you expect WotC to print a counterpart to Lavinia, that maybe costed UB, that said: "Each opponent can’t cast non-sorcery and non-instant spells with converted mana cost greater than the number of lands that player controls"?
Had they printed a card like Lavinia before this perceived trend started taking place, I think they would've printed a counterpart to Lavinia worded similarly to above. I don't expect to see such a card being printed in current sets, considering the cards they've been printing recently. There would be an 'outrage' on reddit every day.
So, based on those (unsubstantiated) impressions, I find it difficult to believe that WotC hasn't been incentivizing having permanents in play, at the cost of discouraging holding cards in hand. What I perceive as the problem with the newer cards is that the asymmetrical hate cards are backed by an asymmetrical design approach.
Except you totally miss the point of Lavinia if you think your proposed counterpart would do anything other than be relegated to the junk rare binder. Lavinia is good because non-creature based decks are CONSTANTLY trying to cheat on mana with moxen. Creature based decks rarely do this as much and would, thus, probably play right through a piece of garbage card like the one you proposed.
Do people realize that Scrying isn't putting anything into your hand on turn 1 and so even if you Scry into a Bazaar in the top 3,6,or 9 it doesn't matter cause you still can't DRAW it that first turn and thus you probably just lose to Paradoxical Outcome being faster? Like, am I missing something here?
@wagner I noticed that right when the card was spoiled. I still think you run Thalia and Lavinia in the same deck because games where you don't draw one you'll want the other for density of relevant cheap drops. The first clause on Lavinia is still in effect for force of will FYI. It only really affects moxen that your opponent may drop and those moxen can't ramp out big spells anyway.
Since I helped to derail this threat, I will now attempt to put it back on the tracks. I acknowledge that there is deep seeded disagreement about the perceived "fun" of cards like this. My bottom line is I love diversity in any format and I like seeing wildly different or opposed cards/strategies collide on the battlefield. I find that sort of jockeying for position to be what makes matches of magic worth watching. But, I digress. Back to analyzing THIS card :).
Here are some ways I think this card could be built around:
A deck with Knight of the Reliquary and Ramunap Excavator. My reasoning for this is that if you can keep your opponent at less lands you can keep them even MORE hard locked. I also like the idea of Sylvan Safekeeper in such a list to ensure that the Lavinia survives early spot removal. Such a list would also run 3-4 Stony Silence to make sure moxen can't help cast things if they are eeked out early. I think this list would be Bant.
A more Esper approach with something like Salvagers as a win con. I think a deck like that might be able to make use of Lavinia's ability to essentially stop Force of Wills. This kind of deck could probably also run its OWN Force of Wills. I'm also not sure this sort of list would be able to max out on Caverns.
Those are the main 2 shells I see this card being abused in. Do other people have additional thoughts?
well, after reading the comments in this thread I have just one thing to say: I'm glad most of you all are not in charge of R & D. People are ripping this card apart without even understanding that it really only answers unfair plays in the first place. If you don't think playing a Dig Through Time for UU without really blinking an eye is broken as shit, then could you find it within yourself to kindly F-OFF! Would you?? Wait. . . have you done it?!! NO?? Please do. Like I'm sooo sick of this BS. It wasn't lazy design. It was sufficient design to actually make an effing difference vs. all the nonsense blue has received over the past 5 years. It actually DOES something relevant vs. PO AND Jeskai, providing a traditional human deck with a much needed 2-drop to supplement Thalia. It also plays very nicely with Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary. I think this card makes such a deck a much more competitive prospect and SO WHAT IF IT IS?? I really just want to give every complaining character in this threat the tiniest Violin to help assuage their delicate egos. Magic is ever evolving. Vintage is ever evolving.
LEARN. . .
TO. . .
ADAPT. . .
YOU. . .
FREAKING. . .
Blue decks having Force of Will and cards that just draw them into more of that card have enjoyed having answers for virtually everything all the time. If Cavern of Souls makes that proposition slightly less certain then GREAT!!! It's about time that Force of Will got taken down a peg or two. Maybe start playing real 2-for-1s and run some Wastelands? Like, there are a lot of options. Jimminy Christmas!
Sounds like we can't have taxing decks in Vintage anymore. It's all "let me do my thing and let's see who does it faster".
Yeah, it's exactly my impression of what Vintage has been for a long time. When a new blue card gets printed, everyone is super happy to have a new toy, but when a new hate card gets printed, people throw a tantrum because they can't use their toys like they want. Seems the only type of interaction people are willing to accept is counterspells because it's somehow "fairer" to gets things countered instead of not being able to play them.
"Come on, are we really complaining about a non-existent problem?"
Seems like it, I can't remember a single hate-bear deck putting decent and steady results in tournaments. Seems like people are afraid to lose games against random rogues decks.
QFT. I really wish blue players would stop bellyaching and understand that they are living in a bubble. The rest of us mortals only get to try and claw our way into things with smart deck-building and precision playing. Also, answering dude decks isn't just about running more spot removal as @Hrishi said. That is a demonstration of complete lack of understanding the matchup. It's about fundamentally answering WHAT the hatebear deck is trying to do rather than just randomly answering some hatebears. I would treat that comment akin to when I heard a pro player whine about dredge being too good because they lost to it frequently even though they run 8 hate cards in their sb. They never stopped to think that the hate they chose was wrong or that the fundamental build constraints of their deck were holding them back. Over time, players have finally caught on to Wasteland being an incredibly important soft hate card vs. dredge. If you are going to elect to NOT run Wasteland in your 75 then you better have the right hate vs. dredge (ie RIP and Leyline and not just Priest and Cage) or just win faster (i.e PO). If you do neither of those things then yea, your dredge win rate might not be great. Guess what, that is an f-ing meta!
Beating Humans/Hatebears isn't just a function of "let's run more bolts and plows." If that's what you think then you are just ignorant and don't deserve to beat my amazing archetype ;P. So either innovate and actually LEARN about the archetype you intend to beat or stop whining like right now.