@protoaddict I think you guys are making it all more complicated than it needs to be. Just use proxies. Have unsanctioned tourneys. I can sell out and play 60 card proxy decks of any make that I want. I can play every card in the game and just enjoy the game and the community. Screw real cards. It's all just cardboard anyway. WotC doesn't need to do a damn thing - and they never will. They don't care. They are printing money to sell to the folks that for some reason feel the need to own real cards. Just make some sweet proxies, run your own events, and have fun.
Here's my only points on this, and I think they are just truisms:
- WotC doesn't give a shit about any of us, especially Vintage players. They print money, and us trading/buying/selling old dollar bills already in circulation is of no consequence to them.
- They have zero incentive to reprint RL cards or allow proxies in sanctioned anything. Again, see point #1.
Prices are absurd - and this is from a guy that has bought in and sold out twice...starting in 1996. I have always chased the new rares and had sellers remorse when I sold, yet always sold because I realized I didn't want $100k in cardboard sitting in my house in case of theft or fire. Magic is crack, and a habit hard to kick. But I'm selling out again and know I'm done for good. I will play online (Arena and cockatrice - i.e. free - only) and in person with proxies only. We can keep Vintage alive with unsanctioned proxy tourneys, but that's it. Thinking WotC will ever do anything to help the affordability of Vintage is straight foolishness and wishful thinking at this point. Just accept it and move on. If you disagree, see points #1 and 2 again.
- Xerox is a large part of the meta, and perhaps the most popular Vintage deck.
- Who the heck is casting stroke?
- Who is getting to a game where they have 15 lands?
- Shops/Bazaar are totally different mana bases and deck construction. If the thread was about "how can I play magic without fetches/duals," then that's been answered since dredge/shops. The post is about what can replace fetches and duals (presumably in the decks that play them) - and the answer seems to be none, or something so ridiculous that WotC would be crazy to print them.
@lienielsen But, you lose the ability to shuffle - and fetches usually get 3+ color mana access immediately by fetching duals of different types. It's also quasi-indestructible until you need to crack it.
Losing the "when you chose to" shuffle effect might make it not worth it even then. Brainstorm->fetch has become a staple play since Onslaught.
@lienielsen Basic land types on lands add extra bonuses (cases like Valukut, Sanctuary, etc.). Having those land types makes any land better in 99% of cases because of interactions with other lands/cards. I do think indestructible or hexproof are needed at a minimum to make any card as playable as a fetch/dual base, but the fact that fetches shuffle your deck and can get things like sanctuary will make a fetch-based manabase almost always superior to anything you can print - even a painless, EoT untapped, indestructible city of brass with all land types would not replace the shuffle value of fetches. You'd actually need such a land to have "When X enters the battlefield, shuffle your library" to even be in the same ballpark of playability.
@protoaddict The thing I'd worry about with that - if you restricted fetches AND duals, because otherwise a 3-color deck would just run 4x singleton fetches within colors...likely the 4 blue fetches - is that you give Shops and Bazaar a boost while only hurting the xerox decks. Shops and Bazaar decks are the ones likely to leverage wastelands too, so then it's just a double hit to colored decks. It tilts the scales in their direction unnecessarily.
@blindtherapy Who plays mana confluence now? Nobody. Even without the life loss, it's just not better than fetchlands and duals. We have 5c options with city and confluence and nobody plays them. You couldn't fetch this Paradise Quintome anyway, so it would be equally unplayable. Fetches are just too good for any deck wanting colored mana.