So if you oath this up...can you just cast angel's grace and draw the heck out of your deck for the win? I dunno if this guy is any good in anything we currently have but that ability screams "abusable" to me. Good job WotC - deckbuilder challenge accepted!
Honestly, I think the presence of Narset as an auto 4-of in every blue deck makes this a very playable card. Draw spells are more broken, but when you can't draw more than one spell a turn, digging 7 deep for 2 cards for 4 mana is really the best thing you can do. FoF is the closest as a play-around to Narset, but you only dig 5 deep and often just get ONE of the best two spells in the top 5 if your opponent is at all competent in making piles. 4 mana is like a turn 2-3 play in vintage. If you could run 5 dig through times, you would. Actually...you might not because the delves cannibalize each other. This doesn't hinder multiples at all.
@joshuabrooks I dunno about how accurate that is. I own a shitload of cards...probably north of $50K worth. I don't play MtGO, even though I could buy my collection digitally 100x over plus all the cards I'm missing. But I waste enough of my life on the computer, so I'll pass on MtGO and deal in cardboard.
I know, cards are stupidly expensive. But let's say the cards magically reduced in price by 75% overnight. Why would you buy them (other than assuming it was a blip and they'd jump 150% back overnight)? You'd have nowhere to play them and the times you could use them you'd be paying big entry fees for low EV.
Nobody will host big events with huge prizes because they'd lose money as not many would show up. Most won't buy in because it's too expensive for the EV since there's not many sanctioned tourneys with any decent prize to play in. It's the chicken and the egg, except the chicken is cooked and the egg won't crack in this catch-22.
I think the real solution has nothing to do with proxies...and it may not even be a matter of the reserved list. Sure, it'd be great if power was cheaper to acquire, but there are plenty of people that could do it and don't, yet pay big for Modern and Legacy. The biggest deterrent I feel is prize support and frequency of high-profile events. If you could pick up a playset of goyfs, bobs, seizes, chalices, and other pricey cards to play a BG rock deck, or a set of blue duals, FoWs, and other junk for Legacy, you're not far away from chipping away at pieces of power.
But why buy Vintage cards? You can go to lots of Modern tourneys and some big Legacy tourneys to a lesser degree - but when are you ever going to use that Vintage deck? Once or twice a year at best? And for what - a $100 entry for a shot at winning an underground sea? Cmon.
Vintage is by far the least supported format with few "big" events and usually crappy prize support or something decent but for $100 entry. If proxies were allowed, people might get in more easily and try their luck...but nobody is going to invest all the way for a format you rarely get to play and for low EV in prizes. Us old folk who bought in early and are now near 40 are the bulk of the scene. We can't expect young players to come in if the opportunity to play often and for good prize support isn't there.
Nobody has a right to play or engage in any commercially supported (by WotC in this case) hobby for free. Vintage, Legacy, Draft or F1 racing ... they are all expensive hobbies from the point of view of different people.
While this is true in the reality of it all, I always personally hated this argument. It is elitist - which the world is, I understand - but also implies there is no interest in facing the best of the best in cardboard battle...just the best of the wealthy.
I'd agree that they shouldn't join for free, but there's a difference between paying $50 to play and $25K to play.
I agree with 10 proxy. I think 100% of Vintage should be proxy allowed, but not all Vintage be 100% proxy. I took the thread to mean all Vintage should allow some number of proxies (like 10-15). I think that helps reduce the barrier to entry. 100% proxy would be ugly.
@shopsaholic Proxies only apply to paper. MtGO really has nothing to do with it. Going to in-person tourneys and playing across from real people is a great experience imo. There are people that don't/can't play in these tourneys simply due to being priced out (I know several).
It's not about making more deck types in the format. People can't even play the decks that exist. If any deck benefits from black lotus, you're already $5K away from playing any optimal list. Kid fresh out of college isn't plopping down $5k for cardboard with $20k in student loans. That same person may be awesome at vintage, but will never get to play in anything sanctioned. That's a shame, I believe.
The other thing - Wizards ALREADY has zero support for vintage paper tournaments. So making proxies can't scare off support that doesn't and won't ever exist. If WotC ever supports vintage, it'll be through MtGO/Arena where they can make money. They get no cash from the secondary market, so they have no gain in supporting paper vintage.
I think yes. While it may irk some current players, they won't quit the game over it. We are hooked. Magic is heroin. Won't quit over something like that.
I think price IS a deterrent to many many people. It's a deterrent to me and I'm a 38 year old dude with some coin to waste. So many players I know won't invest money in the game and have bad assumptions about vintage. Without trying it, they won't play it. Without proxies, they won't try it.
So let's say you let the guy play kitchen table with proxies. He likes it. He's all in on the format. He's getting good and wants to play a tourney. The tourney virtually reads "$20K entry fee". He goes back to Modern FNM because Vintage at any competitive level is now unattainable.
Vintage should allow proxies. The prices are just stupid. If you want prices to stay high for collector value, fine. If you want it just to keep players out of the game, that's different. The ability to competitively play this format should not be determined on if you have a fat wallet or were lucky enough to start playing the game in 1993.
@chikararyuu That's exactly what I'm talking about - not that deck specifically, but that idea. I think the karn/narset decks are opening up room for new archetypes by preying on the traditional top decks. And the thing I love is that they aren't preying on the top decks as decklists, they are doing it by preying on the mechanics (draw and fast mana). THAT is how you take down top decks - take out their main mechanics, not the specific cards 1-for-1. Fancy cars are shit when you take out the engine and all their bells and whistles become garbage at that point. To @ChubbyRain 's point, that particular NYSE list does look like a beefed up Legacy deck. (not that I mind that).
@GutoCmtt This is what I was talking about (vs. Karn). Artifact mana is their achilles heel. Hit their acceleration and they are hurting severely. Just need to be sure you have the clock to capitalize on the time bought.
@chubbyrain Looks like my analysis had a bit of merit - decks adapting their strategies or becoming new decks entirely are answering the Karn/Narset menaces. Utilizing the tools themselves is not even a problem because they are tools specifically designed to beat the top mechanics. The new decks using them are not hurt by them so much. MH1 added some additional tools, but we'd known about FoV and its potential for weeks now. Even not being play legal, it's been in MtGO for a minute, and I've been decktesting with it since it was spoiled. It's just my guess, but I think we'll end up with some new "pillars" if they leave narset and karn unrestricted, and I will happy dance all day if that happens. The top decks of old are going to be facing obstacles they can not easily handle, and I suspect it will change the landscape for the better.
@desolutionist I tend to build my decks to fight/go under strategies. Shops fighting hurkylls is a great example of fighting on the wrong axis. Karn tends to be in mana-ramp decks. Hitting the mana ramp helps. Narset tends to be in blue decks fighting blue decks, where "draw" is their axis. Hit the draw mechanic/dodge using so much draw.
Could a blood moon deck with SSG, tombs, ESG, stop the karn/shop ramp? Maybe. Would be decent vs bazaar as well if you could consistently drop a turn 1 moon effect. Could that same deck run grudges, rebs, rods, and other things? Sure. Can it run quick, sizable creatures to be a decent clock as well? Sure. Would this type of deck work overall? I dunno, maybe. Maybe not. Worth a try.
@naixin It may pan out that way, but I think that is boxing yourself in. Why do you have to suck vs blue to beat Karn and vice versa? Are there no options that beat both? I believe there are no CURRENT options as far as netdeckable decks that do both well - but I don't think there's no possible deck that can do both.
I think with looking beyond blue, you can beat blue and narset and also shops and karn. Have I built said deck yet? Maybe, maybe not. I don't seem to have as much trouble against resolved karns, but I also don't build mox-dependent decks either. I tend to run more in the null-rod category, which happen to stifle turbo-karn and PO.
In general, I just think seeing vintage as only 4 viable decks and ignoring everything else by thinking you HAVE to play one of those 4 decks to be competitive is flawed and disallows you to see answers that are possible. I'm not talking about building a narset hate deck and losing to karn or a karn hate deck and losing to narset. I'm talking about starting from scratch and making something that can fight both. That takes work, but I'm not so convinced it can't be done. The data doesn't show that. The data shows 90% of decks trying to ramrod the same strategies into a brick wall and then being confused about why they can't break through.
@chubbyrain In all seriousness, sorry for the trolling.
Also, while I appreciate the data analysis, I think there's some flaw in the approach, as I stated in my earlier post. If the same decks that are having trouble vs karn (because they rely on artifact activations and karn is a non-artifact null rod), then does the data show Karn is really a problem, or does it show that he's doing what he was intended to do and the adherence to artifact-dependent decks is the problem? I think the latter, and I think your data supports BOTH positions equally. The data shows how Karn and Narset are fairing in metas with decks that Karn and Narset are designed to prey on. So when the data shows that the cards are acheiving this goal, but the meta is still the same decks vs decks now using these 2 cards, what is the data really telling us? It could be a signal that the cards are a problem, but it could also suggest it's time to put down PO and aggro shops and find entirely new decks to shift the meta towards. If you want to say Karn is a problem for the CURRENT metagame (that's basically xerox, PO, aggro shops, and a couple survival), then I'll agree with that. But I don't see that as a problem. We can adapt and find different strategies as opposed to running the same metagame decks and wondering why it's not working (not saying YOU are doing that, per se).
Well - I'm going to have to let my jabs go...my apologies @ChubbyRain . I admit I was feeling a bit trollish as of late, but I can see I've gotten under your skin even more than intended. Honestly, I don't even know who you are behind the handle, I've never seen you stream, and I was kinda picking a fight just to entertain myself once it got going. My initial post was snarky and oversimplified the answer to karn...but once you latched on in the way you did, I kept reeling the line. I'll let it go, and sorry if I really irked you as much as it seems.
I DO think that there are answers to karn. He is an extremely powerful card, no doubt...but there are many overly busted cards like workshop, bazaar, and PO that we have no problem living as a 4-of, so why start at Karn getting axed? I think the answer isn't necessarily jamming some answer into an established deck. To be honest, I NEVER run established decks. I am rogue to the max. I think the fact that I'm NOT running PO or shops has made my win rate better against karn than is true of some other builds. Karn was designed to stop artifacts (i.e. shops and moxen storm), so I imagine those decks will have a hard time vs it.
I do think we could take the time to explore more R/G, G/W, or other colored builds that would handle narset and karn more easily than what is the common netdecks of now. @ChubbyRain , if you're doing that, then kudos. As I said, never saw you stream and don't know you. My experience has been that most players netdeck and try to tune/tweak/master that deck as opposed to trying new things because they are players more than inventors. And if many people are netdecking decks that have problems vs Karn, it seems no wonder that the data is skewed to show Karn being a problem. It seems like trying to catch a fish with a bait that the fish don't want, and instead of trying a different bait, people rearrange the same bait on the hook, that doesn't work, and they deem the fish uncatchable.
@chubbyrain I get that you don't see survival or creatures as a viable way to beat karn. Maybe I'm wrong and all my testing has been a fluke. I'll bite. I'll pin my view of survival/creatures vs karn on your experience and your 0-2 stream.
So what's your solution? Ban Karn or quit Magic? Are you suggesting it's unbeatable unless you run something specifically to beat karn and the have a 5% win rate vs any other deck in the format?
I guess I'll have to agree with that. You played with survival on stream and went 0-2 vs Karn. I suppose it's certainly time for WotC to pull some immediate action.
I don't think people aren't considering your experience or "not listening," but you seem to be doing the opposite. You are only considering your experience as well (or maybe you + 1 other). And you go so far as to imply that if you're not playing on MtGO, you're a noob and experience outside of Vintage Superleage or MtGO doesn't count for shit. That's not true.
I mean, the survival matchup is bad, two experts of the deck told you so and I lost both my matches against it 0-2 tonight on stream.<
Last time I checked, there were more than 3 MtG players around.
To the rest of the thread, for sake of being productive...
Assassin's trophy is not a bad answer. Maindeck artifact hate is solid as well, especially of the instant variety. Karn/mycosinth/vault isn't so hot with an ancient grudge in hand.
Sorcerous Spyglass has been very good to me as a broad answer to a lot main deck. Dack, fetches, wastes, ballista, survival, bazaar, karn, etc. Hitting 2 mana for spyglass (and dodging misstep) is at the least as easy as hitting 4 non-shop mana for karn + the mana to play lattice or combo with key/vault in one turn.
Creatures like hollow one have been solid as they cost 0 even through a sphere off a bazaar and at least trade with TKS to draw you back a card. Eldrazi may be some of the best creatures to fight karn (and revoker is solid here too), but that often leaves you with few instant speed answers. My Eldrazi deck is GW and nature's claim is solid vs karn when they try to pull the combo. RG would allow grudges, and those are great in the matchup. If Karn makes RG more attractive/playable in the meta, that's extra great imo.
@horologium I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually see her squashing of draw to be a good thing. The double impulse for sorcery speed 1UU over 2 turns is fine. That's solid, but not OP. Her turning off opposing draw is only a detriment if you are running a draw-heavy cantrip deck. Run anything that doesn't just try to draw its deck into a scant amount of threats, and you are just facing a double impulse enchantment with no static ability.
If this pushes more decks away from the "I draw 50 cards and play my 1 kill spell" decks, then I'm all for it.
The one exception I see to this is draw 7 decks that can abuse her. That could be problematic...but then she is also a weapon AGAINST that type of deck. And at least that would be a new-ish type of deck. If it becomes dominant, I'll rethink my position on Narset. But if we end up with a decent draw 7 deck and a bunch of decks that rely on tutor, filter, and topdeck (or at least JUST ancestral and a couple more draw spells as opposed to 22 mana, 36 draw spells and 2 threats), I'll be happy with that.
@thelastgnu Isn't that just true of cage more so than karn though? You still have hollow/rootwalla/hardcast VV. Granted, karn can grab cage G1 without having dead main slots, so that's big...but survival also runs manglehorn or other options main, no? Force of Vigor should also provide a nice out once we get into MH1 legality.
Also, if you have a keepable hand, you likely have a hollow or vengevine + rootwalla to drop turn 1. If they turn 1 karn (just as likely as you turn 1-ing 5 damage), don't you just kill karn? then the card reads "4: gain 5 life and get an artifact from your sb" That's still solid for 4 mana, but cage isn't great at that point and neither is lattice. You maybe have to deal with batterskull or wurmcoil, but you also have artficat destruction main.
I think with Ouphe and Vigor, it'll be even less of a problem than it may be now.