Again - the ONLY answer you all will ever get is when you leave WotC out of the equation. They are not do anything for Vintage - not proxies, not proxy passes [though that really seems like a great option if WotC did give a sh!t, which again, they don't], not abolishing the reserve list, not printing functional replacements, and not printing superior cards. WotC will NEVER DO ANYTHING TO LOWER THE PRICE OF VINTAGE. Further, they DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR COMPLAINING ABOUT IT. They have no interest in doing anything that could possibly mess with the secondary market or cause any litigation, and the .005% of their profits that Vintage represents is not worth any effort AT ALL to them. I wish people could just accept that point and move on.
If you want to play Vintage in person with cardboard, it will have to be unsanctioned and allow proxies...and that's all there is to it. There are NO other options, so looking for them is a moot point if any option you hope for involves any kind of action or blessing by WotC. WILL.NEVER.HAPPEN. Accept it, deal with it, move on...and just play with your friends and local tourneys or travel to bigger unsanctioned tournaments like ELD used to have.
@protoaddict I think you guys are making it all more complicated than it needs to be. Just use proxies. Have unsanctioned tourneys. I can sell out and play 60 card proxy decks of any make that I want. I can play every card in the game and just enjoy the game and the community. Screw real cards. It's all just cardboard anyway. WotC doesn't need to do a damn thing - and they never will. They don't care. They are printing money to sell to the folks that for some reason feel the need to own real cards. Just make some sweet proxies, run your own events, and have fun.
Here's my only points on this, and I think they are just truisms:
- WotC doesn't give a shit about any of us, especially Vintage players. They print money, and us trading/buying/selling old dollar bills already in circulation is of no consequence to them.
- They have zero incentive to reprint RL cards or allow proxies in sanctioned anything. Again, see point #1.
Prices are absurd - and this is from a guy that has bought in and sold out twice...starting in 1996. I have always chased the new rares and had sellers remorse when I sold, yet always sold because I realized I didn't want $100k in cardboard sitting in my house in case of theft or fire. Magic is crack, and a habit hard to kick. But I'm selling out again and know I'm done for good. I will play online (Arena and cockatrice - i.e. free - only) and in person with proxies only. We can keep Vintage alive with unsanctioned proxy tourneys, but that's it. Thinking WotC will ever do anything to help the affordability of Vintage is straight foolishness and wishful thinking at this point. Just accept it and move on. If you disagree, see points #1 and 2 again.
- Xerox is a large part of the meta, and perhaps the most popular Vintage deck.
- Who the heck is casting stroke?
- Who is getting to a game where they have 15 lands?
- Shops/Bazaar are totally different mana bases and deck construction. If the thread was about "how can I play magic without fetches/duals," then that's been answered since dredge/shops. The post is about what can replace fetches and duals (presumably in the decks that play them) - and the answer seems to be none, or something so ridiculous that WotC would be crazy to print them.
@lienielsen But, you lose the ability to shuffle - and fetches usually get 3+ color mana access immediately by fetching duals of different types. It's also quasi-indestructible until you need to crack it.
Losing the "when you chose to" shuffle effect might make it not worth it even then. Brainstorm->fetch has become a staple play since Onslaught.
@lienielsen Basic land types on lands add extra bonuses (cases like Valukut, Sanctuary, etc.). Having those land types makes any land better in 99% of cases because of interactions with other lands/cards. I do think indestructible or hexproof are needed at a minimum to make any card as playable as a fetch/dual base, but the fact that fetches shuffle your deck and can get things like sanctuary will make a fetch-based manabase almost always superior to anything you can print - even a painless, EoT untapped, indestructible city of brass with all land types would not replace the shuffle value of fetches. You'd actually need such a land to have "When X enters the battlefield, shuffle your library" to even be in the same ballpark of playability.
@protoaddict The thing I'd worry about with that - if you restricted fetches AND duals, because otherwise a 3-color deck would just run 4x singleton fetches within colors...likely the 4 blue fetches - is that you give Shops and Bazaar a boost while only hurting the xerox decks. Shops and Bazaar decks are the ones likely to leverage wastelands too, so then it's just a double hit to colored decks. It tilts the scales in their direction unnecessarily.
@blindtherapy Who plays mana confluence now? Nobody. Even without the life loss, it's just not better than fetchlands and duals. We have 5c options with city and confluence and nobody plays them. You couldn't fetch this Paradise Quintome anyway, so it would be equally unplayable. Fetches are just too good for any deck wanting colored mana.
Uro really gains nothing from this card. You scry 2 and then draw next turn and if you have uro in hand, you shock something. On the turn 2 you likely cast Uro so you won't have the cost reduction turn 3, and reducing Uro's cost by 1 is negligable. If you Escape him, you get no cost reduction since he's all colored mana.
Calamity Bearer and Bonecrusher Giant are the only things to really leverage all three steps of this Saga, and those are unplayable in Vintage.
@protoaddict I don't see how replacing duals/fetches would accomplish that. If there's something that could replace them, the decision would just be to replace them then. If they printed triomes that entered untapped, the thread would just change to "what can replace fetches/triomes manabases?" Right now duals are the best option. As soon as you best them, it just becomes the new "dual land." You can make lands with abilities that spawn new deck ideas, but you'll never make a replacement for duals in current decks that requires a decision between land options. You'll just literally replace the duals with the better option, no thought involved.
Any land that is fetchable means fetches will remain. If it's not fetchable, it's unlikely to be played unless it's OP like a painless city of brass. If the goal is just to give an option other than fetchable lands, you can make a land like:
Land - Forest Plains Swamp
T: Add G, W, or B.
If Jund Triome would enter the battlefield except from your hand, put it in your graveyard instead.
But I doubt even that would see play since fetches + duals are just better. You could even print this:
Land - Forest Plains Mountain Island Swamp
T: Add G, W, R, U, or B.
If Paradise Quintome would enter the battlefield except from your hand, put it in your graveyard instead.
...and it still wouldn't be played because fetches + duals are just better.
@blindtherapy Yes, it would stop all lands that tap for more than any one color - duals would just be the biggest hit in vintage since that's pretty much the only multi-colored land played in vintage other than cavern of souls. I'm thinking specifically about Vintage (which could just be printed in a Vintage Masters set).
@Protoaddict since the post is "what could REPLACE dual/fetch manabases", I have to say there's no printing that would trump them without being overly pushed. I think the best way to repress their dominance as a manabase is to print cards that punish them - like a dual-specific blood moon type card.
Actually - if a 2-land tron that produced RRUUWW (which wasn't even my original thought) would not be good enough for Vintage, then I think the answer is blatantly obvious: there is NOTHING you can print that will replace duals to lessen demand. The only way to reduce the play of duals would be to print cards that make playing duals a detriment. They tried with Opposition Agent, but 3 mana is too slow for the turn 1 fetch and does nothing to dissuade from duals just being played. The best possibility would be something like a blood moon variant. Given FoV, even blood moon won't work. It needs to be quick and hard to remove:
Ruins of Progress
Lands that would tap for more than one type of mana only tap for 1 instead.
That still allows bazaar, workshop, mystic sanctuary, dark depths and all that to thrive. It doesn't even stop fetches...it just puts a stop to duals. It would be to duals what the null rod is to moxen.