@dracomnisgt The list in that link is basically ad nauseum tendrils with painter/stone jammed in. It utilizes Reap well, but that doesn't go with REB. REB is good in general, but I also dislike calling "blue" on painter as you now allow the opponent to pitch any card - even land - to FoW. I'm thinking of building more around Painter and cards synergistic with a single color choice. Something like naming "White." Havoc becomes a cool card because for 2 mana, you get a 1-sided pyrostatic pillar. 10 spells and you win. You can also play gloom. 3 mana and it's a 1-sided triple sphere effect. By using black/red cards, you also get all the best tutors and goblin welder + goblin engineer.
I'd suggest R/B because of the welders and tutors, but you could try red/white. White has 4x enlightened tutor, great foils to black, and that could let you utilize reap too if you go RGW. The design space is wide open. I wouldn't take a deck with one strategy and jam painter in it. Build around painter and make the grindstone an incidental win.
I actually considered painter with the grindstone kill as secondary. There are a host of strategies you can use that just wreck a mono-colored deck. Think white and Gloom, black and CoP black/reap, etc. You can make a great value-town deck with painter where the grindstone is just a bonus "oops, I win". I think it's viable with the right thought put into it - painter itself is immune to null rod effects.
Usually it's in response to any recurred threat that will be devastating - like an ichorid + 2 bloodghast turn - when they activate any of those abilities. Another good time, if no unmanageable threat is imminent, is when they have a few dredgers in the yard, but an empty hand...meaning they have to top deck a dredger with their draw or bazaar (and not be dredging that turn). That can buy you the turn or two you need to win.
Note that you'll never have priority to exile hogaak, if the dredge pilot is competent and has the 2 black creatures in play to cast him. You need leyline or Rip to stop hogaak as instant speed is too slow.
@blindtherapy PO bounces non-token, so you can't gain cards off the treasures...it's 1R to cast to gain maybe 3 mana? Doesn't seem great. It's a lot of mana vs a full shops board, but against a shops board with 6+ permanents, you're losing anyway if you don't have FoV/hurkylls.
@babau Yes, but 1 non-shop mana on turn 2 should not be hard at all. The ability to flash a dreadnaught in on the opponent's EoT turn 1 is such a huge thing that it can't be underestimated. Dack stealing your DN is gg most times. Metmorph copying and such (fringe case) is also avoided with this. You still have to connect twice, and are open to a ton of artifact hate, so likely the format has gotten too fast and answer-heavy (force of vigor) for any non-lock artifact plan nowadays.
@babau Torpor Orb is not better. With torpor orb, you have to cast dreadnaught at sorcery speed and pass the turn, opening you up to a Dack steal. With this, you can flash it in on their EoT and then flip it and swing on yours. This card is WAY better than torpor orb for sneaking in artifact fatties.
I'm most often KillerKarma (sometimes thewhitedragon69) on Cockatrice. I'm mainly into Modern, Vintage, Old School (in that order), but dabble in legacy on rare occassion. I'm on Cockatrice almost nightly (Texas central time from 9-11pm mainly). Feel free to add and PM me and we can play any time!
@john-cox Wow - that brings back some memories. I haven't looked at that list in forever. I remember the 4x trinisphere days were just absurd, but the 4x chalice version after the trini restriction was still amazing. The ability to mask in a 1cmc dreadnaught through a chalice @1 was the bee's knees. Loved that deck.
Side note - if I remember correctly, at the time, it was the most expensive deck list in paper ever built!
@jclnc007 So, I'm definitely sure you have to pay AT LEAST the CMC of the creature - but you can pay MORE to conceal the true cost (thus the flavor of the mask). It's expensive because it's a reserved list card and was never reprinted as in Revised edition. There's never been a time (pre or post errata) where you could play less than the CMC to get a creature into play. You could dodge the additional costs like sacrificing creatures, thus why dreadnought was a great combo. It also used to be an ability so you could dodge counterspells. After the errata, you are still casting the creature, so it can be countered (making mask virtually worthless outside of the dreadnought combo).
There was once a deck called Full English Breakfast that ran survival of the fittest, volrath's shapeshifter, masks, dreadnoughts, birds of paradise, and phage the untouchable. The trick was to either get a dreadnought into play via mask or shapeshifter copy OR survival a bird into your grave with shapeshifter in play, attack with flying for evasion, then survival a phage into the grave before damage so the opponent would die instantly.
If I'm not mistaken, you could pay X where X was the CMC or more to put a creature into play face down (originally). I don't think you needed the actual color of mana to do it - but I always played it with dreadnought, which is colorless anyway. In either case, you most certainly can't pay LESS than the CMC of a creature to put it into play. That would have been more broken than any other card in magic if you could have played any creature for 1 mana and probably restricted before moxen.
@jclnc007 Gilded lotus was a big include in the original 7/10 split deck (I believe it was even a 3x of). The ramp of welding in a gilded lotus, then welding in another after tapping the first gave such a huge mana boost that you often had 8+ mana on turn 3. Now we even have cards like faithless looting, whereas before it cost 3 mana with frantic search or intuition. You could conceivably have a turn 2 8+ mana now.
@nsammael My current version runs LED and 1x mox diamond. I could see going up to more, but there are only 5 non-bazaar lands I'm running and slots are at a premium. As far as interaction goes, I've found FoW and FoN to just be eating up valuable slots more often than they are game-winning. FoV is the disruption the deck wants, and it's a great main 4x of. I am sure with 8x FoW/FoN, the deck has more interaction and can prevent some turn 1 losses, but it slows its own strategy down 3+ turns to do it in many cases. A fatestitcher version with 4x FoV main can turn 1-2 kill fairly consistently and can blow up anything hindering/threatening to make that happen. I'm loving fatestitcher/breakthrough w/ 4x FoV.
@ajfirecracker I think lion's eye is good with fatestitchers. I actually changed my build and cut FoWs for max cabal therapy, max stitcher, and 3 dread return. Honestly, the force of vigor seems like the all star to me. It gets rid of main hate, turn 1 spheres, turn 1 oath, time vault, and anything else that is much of a threat. I found FoW underwhelming in most games as I always wished they were something more dredge related.
Force of negation didn't play out well for me even before this list and FoW always felt weak...odd as that is to say. It seems to me the deck wants to be fast and have a bomb answer (vigor) for the biggest turn 1 threats. The FoW build seems like it can disrupt a lot, but it's a lot slower. You can slow roll with bridges and ichorids and hoogaak, but I find there's something to be said for winning on turn 2 consistently. FoV just gives dredge that maindeck answer it always wanted.
@ajfirecracker So here's a list I've been tinkering with:
// V_1_rainbow dredge
// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
// 23 Creature
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sun Titan
// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below
// 8 Instant
4 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Will
// 9 Land
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Mana Confluence
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
// 12 Sorcery
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
3 Dread Return
// 2 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Darkblast
I don't have a sb yet. I discovered faithess looting is just a bad bazaar effect for 1 mana. Breakthrough, on the other hand, is absurd. Dredge x4 + discard your hand for 1 mana is bonkers. I've turn 2ed very consistently with this, and often because the second land I play casts breakthrough. You are able to flip 20+ cards off breakthrough fairly regularly. If you land a "blue mox" effect on turn 1 with a bazaar, you can cast breakthrough and chain off of therapies and returns into titan and mill your whole deck turn 1 for a zealot win...all while still having 4x FoV and FoW main deck.
I think breakthrough is the speed card that may have been missing to make "pitch" dredge explosively fast. The one downside I see is that you can't play breakthrough and keep up FoW + blue card unless you cast breakthrough off of a lotus. But I don't know if that's a back breaker. You can still proactively Vigor, you just have to rely more on therapy to clear the way...or you hold breakthrough and use it as the FoW fodder if you expect rav trap/extraction to be cast. Pact of Negation or unmask may work as replacements for FoW.
This deck isn't 100% tuned, but it is crazy fast and consistent and still has the 8x pitch spells to ram through hate. Let me know what anyone thinks.
One card I always wondered about in vintage dredge is faithless looting. Nobody plays it, and I think the color has something to do with that, but draw 2, discard 2 for one mana (and then having flashback) seems like it would be great for what the deck tries to do - dredge. I could also see a legacy version throwback - breakthrough. Could there be some sort of rainbow colored dredge that could run lootings and breakthrough to some degenerate effect? Bazaar is still bazaar, but having a bunch of spells that mimic the effect or have a draw 4 for 1 mana component seem really good. Breakthrough also pitches to FoW and FoN, so there's that, too.
So if you oath this up...can you just cast angel's grace and draw the heck out of your deck for the win? I dunno if this guy is any good in anything we currently have but that ability screams "abusable" to me. Good job WotC - deckbuilder challenge accepted!
Honestly, I think the presence of Narset as an auto 4-of in every blue deck makes this a very playable card. Draw spells are more broken, but when you can't draw more than one spell a turn, digging 7 deep for 2 cards for 4 mana is really the best thing you can do. FoF is the closest as a play-around to Narset, but you only dig 5 deep and often just get ONE of the best two spells in the top 5 if your opponent is at all competent in making piles. 4 mana is like a turn 2-3 play in vintage. If you could run 5 dig through times, you would. Actually...you might not because the delves cannibalize each other. This doesn't hinder multiples at all.