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@vaughnbros I never said anything about taking a bunch of damage to establish a mana lock.

EDIT: I've been solitairing URg Landstill with extra Fastbond for the last hour or so and am having way too much fun to keep saying that it should stay restricted. 😉

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@vaughnbros I never said Crucible and Waste were unhealthy. Currently they are both value cards in decks that have other primary game plans. Unrestricting Fastbond makes Crucible a viable Plan A and I'm not sure Consistent Land Destruction Combo is a deck we want in the format.

I do not believe Zuran Orb is playable, unfortunately. If you really want to play a gimmicky combo, you can just assemble Fastbond+Crucible+2xFactories without the Zuran Orb and Channel+Fireball somebody to death if you have more life than them and they don't have blockers.

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@Topical_Island Not saying it would be broken. I'm against it because amping up Wasteland and Crucible probably isn't healthy for the format. Restricted Fastbond forces decks to only run it if they can consistently abuse it every time they draw it (e.g. 4x Gush decks), so you won't have decks popping up with the primary gameplan of assembling Fastbond + Crucible.

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@Serracollector said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

Rod completely shuts down zuran orb..... And landstill? Really? So you drop fastbond turn 1, if they dont have derpstep, then what? Drop 2 lands and Standstill and now you have 2-3 cards in hand and hope one is FoW and the other is a blue card in a 3 color deck? Yea sounds way overpowered......

Landstill doesn't try to 'go off' with Fastbond. It drops it with or slightly before/after Crucible, wipes your board with Wasteland/Strip Mine, puts up a couple of Factories to chump/kill any creatures you already have and fetches a couple more islands to hold up Mana Drain.

You don't want it in your opening hand; you want to draw into it, because it makes Crucible and Wasteland significantly better. It wouldn't be a Fastbond deck running 4. It would probably run 2.

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URg Landstill would suddenly become very good and probably not too fun to play against.

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@vaughnbros Gifts was broken long after it was released. It's only been about 3-4 years since a Big Blue deck like Tinker+Vault was arguably the best deck and it would be right back in the mix if the number of creatures in top 8s dropped a bit.

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@vaughnbros said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

@twerkshops Well only your 1st scroll can get Ancestral. After that every spell they find is now "overpriced". And is 3 mana ancestral that good? Why is no one playing scroll then?

Consistently playing turn 1-2 Ancestral is so powerful that you're probably ahead and can afford to spend 2 more mana to tutor up a situation-specific spell to consolidate your control. You can grab a Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap against storm. You can grab a Chain of Vapor as a catch-all for any troublesome permanent. If you're holding Jace + Scroll, you can tutor up Mana Drain and hold up the mana for it to play Jace with counter backup the next turn. If you have a busy graveyard you can pick up Dig and have it be better than Ancestral. At the worst, you can tutor up Gush, which is especially good if you suspect (or know) that they're on a Wasteland deck. If they're on an aggro shops list, rather than one with Tangle Wires and Stacks, you can run a singleton Hurkyll's and tear them to shreds every game.

For me, seeing that my opponent has found space for a Merchant Scroll (in the right decks - not just anywhere) and prioritising the early Scroll into Ancestral line has always been a tell that they are probably a strong player.

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@vaughnbros said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

If the whole goal is to just clean up the restricted list, lets start with Fastbond and Merchant Scroll. They are both fairly safe now that Gush is on the list.

I really don't think un-restricting Merchant Scroll is a good idea. 4 extra 3 mana Ancestrals is already extremely dangerous before you add in the utility of finding Dig, Gush, Chain of Vapor, Force, Flusterstorm, etc into it.

@Lesbimagical said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

@BandsWithOthers On average, Dredge is a turn 3-4 combo deck. That's why it gets tolerated compared to some others, I think 🙂

I think Dredge is tolerated because the Anything vs Dredge matchup is effectively a set of mini-games. Assuming the Dredge deck mulls into Bazaar, you have to find and cast a hate piece while they have to win before you can do it. Once a hate piece lands, they have to find a way to destroy it or slowly play around it, while you have to win before they can do that.

Dredge is a horrifically broken combo deck, but it's got similar momentum swings to a spectator sport or a moba that keep it exciting and enjoyable to play with and against.

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Another angle to consider unrestrictions from is, rather than whether it's likely to make a deck consistently broken, whether it's likely to turn a previously decent deck into a glass cannon with a slightly higher win rate than its previous iterations that just makes the format generally more miserable.

I think Bargain fits into that category. If you unrestrict Bargain, you make it almost too tempting to play 4x Bargain and run yourself into brick walls all day long trying to play rituals and other fast mana into a T1 or T2 Bargain and win on the spot, just because it gives you a 61% win rate rather than a more skill intensive and resilient, but less explosive storm iteration.

That sort of thing has a knock-on effect on other decks, too, who can't rely on their regular counter or sphere suite to put the squeeze on storm and have to start maindecking extra hate for that deck.

@Topical_Island said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

@Hrishi Ok GAME! You pick a card you think could come off the list, and I'll do my honest best to make a list that shows its still broken (Anyone who thinks that a card should stay on the list, really ought to be able to show you a list that demonstrates it's brokenness.)

How about Gush? 😉

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Unrestricting Yawg's Will gives the PO storm deck a bit of a boost, but I don't think it breaks it. Outcome would probably want to run some combination of Outcomes and Wills, since they fulfill a very similar function at different parts of the game/combo.

Both Outcome and Will probably end up drawing some gas, creating some storm, creating some mana and gives a reasonable shot at finding the card you need to win. The restrictions on them are that Outcome has inherent randomness (you don't know that you'll find what you want, while Yawg's Will turns can be calculated) and Yawg's Will can't be used until later in the game/turn when your graveyard has sufficient gas (while Outcome can find its own gas). I think the outcome deck settles on 4 Outcomes and 2 Wills in the end.

I think the most interesting thing unrestricting Yawg's Will would do would be giving a bit more life to duress+ritual storm decks, by giving them options other than folding if their key spell gets countered and they can't find the singleton Yawg's Will. Would be great to play Burning Wish again.

EDIT: Sorry, skim read and thought we were talking about Will.