well yeah but they aren't going to restrict bazaar or workshop. Why isn't LSG broken, given the presence of Workshops?
Because it's a 4 mana creature that dies to just about every removal spell played in the format. It's only being discussed because Workshop is legal as a 4 of. I don't think anyone in this spiraling thread is arguing otherwise. Calling the Golem broken is inaccurate by most peoples definition of broken.
I made this exact point several days ago. If Wizards is unwilling to restrict Workshop, then they are going to have to continue to pinpoint restrict every ridiculous artifact that can get cheated into play via Workshop.
I honestly think it started 10 years ago with Trinisphere. I think Trinisphere is far less broken and oppressive with out Workshop.
Yes, I know... Ancestral Recall is ridiculous. Time Walk is ridiculous (or an Explore, rarely ever in between ), Yawgomoth's Will is ridiculous. But those are all restricted. If they aren't going to restrict the Workshops, then they will have to continue to pick away at pieces. It's one or the other.
I'm not obtuse enough to argue that the MUD restricted cards are comparable power level to Big Blue spells. Island->Ancestral is one of the strongest plays in Magic.
However, I expect the same concessions from you... Workshop->Trini, Wrokshop, Mox-> LSG is pretty powerful.
My only point is you can't argue that a land that taps for 3 mana (unconditionally in MUD) isn't incredibly strong.
Finally, I don't actually want this to digress into a yeah-huh, uh-uh debate... My only point is that Workshops is what fuels all the silliness.
Being a die hard Supes fan, I appreciated that.
I think you misunderstand my position. My position doesn't come from feel bads...
I'm using Logic here (which I know isn't terribly common). I'm coming from the angle of cards with comparable effects are restricted. Look at Black Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt etc etc. Every card that provides a similar ability (fast mana) is restricted.
Just Like Ponder got restricted when Brainstorm was hit. DCI felt Ponder was similar enough to Brainstorm to get restricted.
For the record, I love Vintage, I love broken plays, I like Blue.dec, but I have learned to play against and beat Workshops.
Vintage Tournament Report
Hi-Score St. Paul MN, 19 Players
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
2 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Runy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
4 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Defense Grid
1 Graftdigger’s Cage
4 Tormod’s Crypt
Round 1 Lost to Ham Sandwich
Round 1 started off akward. We got to the store, without realizing there was 6 “Hi-Score’s” in the cities. I called them at about 11:50a (event started at 12p) and told them we went to the wrong place and ask if they’d wait for me. He said he couldn’t wait and I would have to get a round 1 loss for being late, but he’d sign me up. Honestly, I was just happy to be able to play Vintage… We head over.
Round 2 2-0 Land Still
Game 1, opponent fetched T1, tapped out for Ponder, I combo’d off with Tendrils. Game 2, opponent rolled some beats with Factories, got me down to 8. I generated a billion storm but couldn’t find a tutor or Tendrils, so I just Tinkered for Blightsteel and Time Walked.
Round 3 2-1 Mono W Eldrazi
Opponent plays T1 Thalia off a Cavern, I look at my FoW in hand and cry a little. He plays a couple more Eldrazi off a second Cavern T2 and my face gets Reality Smashed. Game 2 on the play, I Tinker out BSC and he concedes before drawing his first card. Game 3, he doesn’t get T1 Thalia and I Tendrils combo on T2.
Round 4 2-0 Old School Storm
Game 1 was funny, I storm up and fizzle and pass the turn. Then he storms up and fizzles as well and passes is back to me. I draw a Yag’s Will, recast the Paradoxical (only card in yard) he Flusterstorms the Paradoxical (9 storm at this point), I have enough mana to pay it (due to Academy and rocks). Draw a million cards and finally win on the second try. Game 2, he plays a Crypt on T1, along with some mana rocks, empties his hand and Balances. Leaving both of us with no hands, no lands, but he has a crypt and a mox. The crypt slowly wears him down, I get Snapcaster down and beat along side the Crypt for the win.
Round 5 0-0-1 ID (They told me Shops, but I never saw the deck)
After my loss in Round 1, I fought back to 4th place at the end of round 4. I go to sit down and my opponent offers a draw, we do the math, decide we both draw into top 8.
Top 8 2-0 Ravager Shops
I’m 5th seed so I’m on the draw the rest of the day. I mull down to 5 and see Land-Mox-Mox-Mox-Demonic Tutor. Plan to Tutor for a Paradoxical, draw a bunch of cards and hopefully win on T2. Opponent drops a T1 Sphere, so I have to spend my T1 Deploying moxes, T2 Resolving Demonic Tutor (Went for Tinker Instead), and T3 Tinker out Blightsteel. Opponent gets beats from Factories and Steel Overseer for a few Turns. When I attack with Blightsteel, he blocks with one creature, I bounce the one creature and win with Infect. Game 2, he gets out a Revoker, Sphere and Overseer. He is beating on me and I’m able to use Hurkyl’s and Engineered Explosives to buy some turns. He gets me down to 5 with lethal on the board before I finally find a PO, and 10 min and 40ish storm later, I’m able to Tendrils.
Top 4 0-2 Ravager Shops
So, before the Top 4 plays, we all decide to spilt the Top 8 prize pool evenly which came to 50.00 cash and $45 Store Credit. The only stipulation was we all got to play for fun. Game 1, storm off with Tendrils. Game 2 and 3 I get locked out by Trinisphere super early and have no game either time.
I had an absolutely amazing time playing this deck. Paradoxical Outcome is such a powerhouse! I will note, that I have never played this deck, didn’t have a net deck deck list, finished building the deck yesterday and my first game with it was literally Game 1 in Round 2!
@countdabubba said in Spell Snare - Time for a comeback?:
@craw_advantage When it's useful it's a 1 for 1 trade that nets you 1 mana over your opponent. When it's not useful you get mowed down by an opponent who deploys their gameplan while you sit there helplessly with a reactive spell in hand.
That sounds like Mental Misstep.
I think costing zero mana vs costing one mana (even though they are both +1 mana advantage, assuming you're not misstepping a misstep) makes Misstep worth the risk of this situation.
Sure, they're both gonna be irrelevant at some point. (That's the drawback of cheap conditional counters), but costing no mana makes Misstep worth it.
No mana over one mana is greater than the difference of one mana.
I still think Memory Jar can be unrestricted (before Windfall at least). After the first Tinker, you are either paying 5 mana... or 3 mana and two cards (Show and Tell).
I'm not saying I want to play with 4 Jars... I just don't think it needs to be restricted.
I think one thing missing from this conversation is yes, "Blue" decks have a 30 card core... but how many of those 30 are restricted?
In comparison, besides the fast mana... How many of Shops cards are restricted? Trini and Chalice? (and yes, now LSG).
All decks in Vintage have the ability to end the game on T1, that's granted. That's why we play Vintage.
However, in order for Blue decks to "T1 win" they need a hand full of restricted cards. All Shops needs is one of their 5 Black Lotus's, one of their 7 Moxen and any number of their un-restricted lock pieces. (LSG, Sphere, Thorn etc).
It is the consistency the Workshops have being that the deck is mostly unrestricted. I personally think that Workshop is the culprit, but they're just too afraid to do anything about it.
Are shops decks pretty similar to play against? sure they all use workshops to advance a permanent based strategy and use sphere effects as speed bumps to slow down their opponent or lock them out. But when we go this generic, it's not that different from saying that all blue decks are the same because they use blue draw spells to dig through their deck to get card advantage and reduce variance in their deck, all while using blue counterspells to protect their strategy and stop the opponent's plans. As a blue player I can counter everything my opponent does and then cast dig through time and it doesn't really matter what my win con is. I could win with a mentor after that, oath, vault/key or a ham sandwich. So saying doomsday and mentor are different decks, but shops are all the same is a complete misunderstanding of the underlying strategy in blue decks.
This is accurate, however, the real reason to classify the decks is to determine how combat the decks.
Against Blue decks, if you stop their engines (draw spells, tutor etc), you will probably do well to win. It doesn't matter what your win con is, if you can't find it/resolve it... it hardly matters.
The same can be said for Workshop decks. They may all have slightly different strategies, but if you can combat the engine (spheres, "speed bumps" etc), you are probably going to beat them because they can't interact with you once you try to win.
So, I agree, like blue decks, all 'shop deck aren't created equal... but strategies that work against one blue deck will work in some fashion against other blue decks and the same goes for Shops.
Ironically, blue decks (and their similarity to each other) is why Shop decks do as well as they do... because "shop" decks prey on "blue" decks.
But all my points still stand. Turn 6 with no protection is still so far from being something to worry about.
I'm still shocked we are in a Vintage forum, and people are literally losing their mind over this combo in Standard.
Edit (after edit) -> I apologize if you felt attacked (by me at least). I was commenting on the concern over this being a T4 over powered combo will not be common. It will take alot of work to put it together. So, please don't take offense to my post.
Okay, here is some feed back from playing this deck at Gen Con:
Round 1: Played against Solemnity/Dark Depths combo. Won G1 on the play with a T1 Orchard/Oath. Opponent conceded before I saw a card. Lost 2 and 3 to too much countermagic.
Round 2: Crushed Ravager Shops
Round 3: Lost to Sultai control (Leovold and stuff)
Round 4: Beat Ravager Shops again (wtf?)
Some things I learned/took away.
The one of Salvagers completely changed the deck. I won with salvagers combo way more than Griselbrand beats/ Storm. Although, I had several concessions from just Griselbrand.
Two, main deck Moat was an absolute house against Shops.
In the second event, I switched to a Not White Tezz deck. I don't have the deck list, but just big blue, lots of counters etc.
Again, in this event I lost to two Blue decks and smashed two Ravager Shops. I wasn't even playing Moat. But still had the two main deck Hurkyl's and ingot chewers/Ancient Grudges from the sideboard.
On the whole, I was 4-4 for Vintage. Add in my 3-1 Legacy final and I had a pretty good weekend of Magic!
Thanks for the all the help in building and brewing!!
@protoaddct said in Proposed New Mulligan Rule for Mythic Championship London:
1 - This mulligan does have some corner cases where it is not strictly better, and many that are. The one thing I can think of is that on the mull to 6 you technically see the same number of cards, but you have the option not to bottom one on a keep. Additionally if you put the scry on top you are protecting it from duress for a turn, where as in the new rule it has to be in your hand.
Although you see the same number of cards on a Mull to 6 (Draw 6+ Scry vs Draw 7- Bottom 1), it is functionally different. On a mull to 6+ Scry, you have to determine you are keeping your hand based on only seeing 6 cards. The Draw 7-bottom 1 lets you see all 7 cards and keep the best 6.
The counter case to your Duress example of course is fetchlands. There have been a greater than zero number of times my opening hand of fetchlands have been pinned down due to the opening scry.