This isn't a discussion on the card itself, because even Juzam is pretty awful by today's standards. We have already seen the color shifted Donate (curious both have been to red), so this isn't new new. Juzam is just the highest profile color shifted card we've seen yet.
However, the question I am curious about is what is the best reserved card we could hope to get color-shifted?
PS: I love the card. It is such a throwback to Juzam. They weren't even trying to be subtle.
@protoaddct said in Proposed New Mulligan Rule for Mythic Championship London:
1 - This mulligan does have some corner cases where it is not strictly better, and many that are. The one thing I can think of is that on the mull to 6 you technically see the same number of cards, but you have the option not to bottom one on a keep. Additionally if you put the scry on top you are protecting it from duress for a turn, where as in the new rule it has to be in your hand.
Although you see the same number of cards on a Mull to 6 (Draw 6+ Scry vs Draw 7- Bottom 1), it is functionally different. On a mull to 6+ Scry, you have to determine you are keeping your hand based on only seeing 6 cards. The Draw 7-bottom 1 lets you see all 7 cards and keep the best 6.
The counter case to your Duress example of course is fetchlands. There have been a greater than zero number of times my opening hand of fetchlands have been pinned down due to the opening scry.
@countdabubba said in Spell Snare - Time for a comeback?:
@craw_advantage When it's useful it's a 1 for 1 trade that nets you 1 mana over your opponent. When it's not useful you get mowed down by an opponent who deploys their gameplan while you sit there helplessly with a reactive spell in hand.
That sounds like Mental Misstep.
I think costing zero mana vs costing one mana (even though they are both +1 mana advantage, assuming you're not misstepping a misstep) makes Misstep worth the risk of this situation.
Sure, they're both gonna be irrelevant at some point. (That's the drawback of cheap conditional counters), but costing no mana makes Misstep worth it.
No mana over one mana is greater than the difference of one mana.
Player A casts a spell (did something), Player B counters the spell (did something)
In this case, both players did something. There was an interaction.
Player A casts a can't be countered spell (did something), Player B... (did nothing)
In this case, only one player did something. There wasn't an interaction.*
Now that doesn't mean interaction can't come later, I was just responding to your comment that counter spells are "uninteractive".
This type of play is often called "interactive", but if you are playing against a deck that does not have counterspells it feels one sided and often dumb.
The one interesting thing is that you can chain your opponent’s Time Walk with these.
Wizards of the coast gave us this card as a preview and I mentioned this interaction in our podcast went live today.
How are you chaining their Time Walk. It seems once you cast their Time Walk the first time, it would then go to their graveyard. (Not back into exile)
What have you found that I'm missing?
Vintage Tournament Report
Hi-Score St. Paul MN, 19 Players
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
2 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Runy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
4 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Defense Grid
1 Graftdigger’s Cage
4 Tormod’s Crypt
Round 1 Lost to Ham Sandwich
Round 1 started off akward. We got to the store, without realizing there was 6 “Hi-Score’s” in the cities. I called them at about 11:50a (event started at 12p) and told them we went to the wrong place and ask if they’d wait for me. He said he couldn’t wait and I would have to get a round 1 loss for being late, but he’d sign me up. Honestly, I was just happy to be able to play Vintage… We head over.
Round 2 2-0 Land Still
Game 1, opponent fetched T1, tapped out for Ponder, I combo’d off with Tendrils. Game 2, opponent rolled some beats with Factories, got me down to 8. I generated a billion storm but couldn’t find a tutor or Tendrils, so I just Tinkered for Blightsteel and Time Walked.
Round 3 2-1 Mono W Eldrazi
Opponent plays T1 Thalia off a Cavern, I look at my FoW in hand and cry a little. He plays a couple more Eldrazi off a second Cavern T2 and my face gets Reality Smashed. Game 2 on the play, I Tinker out BSC and he concedes before drawing his first card. Game 3, he doesn’t get T1 Thalia and I Tendrils combo on T2.
Round 4 2-0 Old School Storm
Game 1 was funny, I storm up and fizzle and pass the turn. Then he storms up and fizzles as well and passes is back to me. I draw a Yag’s Will, recast the Paradoxical (only card in yard) he Flusterstorms the Paradoxical (9 storm at this point), I have enough mana to pay it (due to Academy and rocks). Draw a million cards and finally win on the second try. Game 2, he plays a Crypt on T1, along with some mana rocks, empties his hand and Balances. Leaving both of us with no hands, no lands, but he has a crypt and a mox. The crypt slowly wears him down, I get Snapcaster down and beat along side the Crypt for the win.
Round 5 0-0-1 ID (They told me Shops, but I never saw the deck)
After my loss in Round 1, I fought back to 4th place at the end of round 4. I go to sit down and my opponent offers a draw, we do the math, decide we both draw into top 8.
Top 8 2-0 Ravager Shops
I’m 5th seed so I’m on the draw the rest of the day. I mull down to 5 and see Land-Mox-Mox-Mox-Demonic Tutor. Plan to Tutor for a Paradoxical, draw a bunch of cards and hopefully win on T2. Opponent drops a T1 Sphere, so I have to spend my T1 Deploying moxes, T2 Resolving Demonic Tutor (Went for Tinker Instead), and T3 Tinker out Blightsteel. Opponent gets beats from Factories and Steel Overseer for a few Turns. When I attack with Blightsteel, he blocks with one creature, I bounce the one creature and win with Infect. Game 2, he gets out a Revoker, Sphere and Overseer. He is beating on me and I’m able to use Hurkyl’s and Engineered Explosives to buy some turns. He gets me down to 5 with lethal on the board before I finally find a PO, and 10 min and 40ish storm later, I’m able to Tendrils.
Top 4 0-2 Ravager Shops
So, before the Top 4 plays, we all decide to spilt the Top 8 prize pool evenly which came to 50.00 cash and $45 Store Credit. The only stipulation was we all got to play for fun. Game 1, storm off with Tendrils. Game 2 and 3 I get locked out by Trinisphere super early and have no game either time.
I had an absolutely amazing time playing this deck. Paradoxical Outcome is such a powerhouse! I will note, that I have never played this deck, didn’t have a net deck deck list, finished building the deck yesterday and my first game with it was literally Game 1 in Round 2!
If you wanted to play optimal decks, you'd always run both. So, like, Delver would run two Sapphires and two Lotuses and two Rubies. Paradoxical Outcome would run all 12.
(I mean, unless you did that "combo ban" thing you were talking about. )
Definitely in the Combo Ban world. Obviously with out it, people run both and the problem is still there.... (and probably worse).
I heard an idea at one point was adding a new "Banned" list to the formats. But it was called a "Combo Banned" meaning, this combination of cards is banned, you can have one or the the other, but you can't have both. So to use your question specifically, Black Lotus and Black Lotus 2.0 would be "combo banned". Both would be on the restricted list, and both would be banned in conjunction with each other.
An interesting point about your question 2 (What rules do the power break), and basically the main rule is "1 mana per turn" (Whether that is straight up free mana or ridiculously undercosted spells.) Workshop decks have always been the deck design to make all those players play by the same rules (Chalice, spheres, nullrods etc) and slowly over the course of Vintage, even those strategies have been deemed too strong. My point being that they tried "nullifying" the power and that hasn't done really well.
While falling asleep last night, I was attempting to change the P9 so as to have an equally power level (but different). Note, these would all have to fall into a Combo Banned system. Obviously if you have access to both it just exasperates the problem.
Tap, Sacrifice [this]: Choose one
Add three mana of any color to your mana pool
Add <><><> to your mana pool
"Wasted Mox [Color]"
Tap: Add 1 [color] to your mana pool.
Tap: Add <> to your mana pool.
"Recall of the Ancestors"
Draw three cards. <not, NOT Target player draws three cards. 98% the same, but fundamentally different>
Target player takes another turn after this one.
I loved the idea of Tribal Duals...
Tribal Land- Island Swamp Siren
The question that I find interesting is, lets use my examples of the "Tarnished" Jewelry/Lotus. If you had access to both, which one would you use? The new ones are technically more powerful, no opportunity cost to using... but, not our original pretty old school pieces.
I have had this discussion locally as well. Wizards never needs to reprint RL cards. The exact moment they need to, they print something better.
The card I came up with is
Tap, Sacrifice [this]: Choose one
Add three mana of any color to your mana pool
Add <><><> to your mana pool
The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.
I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.
What? You may want to read Oath of Druids. Reanimator isn't played in Vintage because Oath is a one card combo. Reanimator is a 2 card combo (barring moving to cleanup with 8 on the draw). You also needlessly open yourself up to your opponents dedicated Dredge hate that exiles the graveyard.
Your tone is pretty confrontational. I am very aware of how Oath of Druids works. I'm curious how your "one" card combo works vs a Storm deck or even a Tezzerator? Sure, if your opponent helps you out, it is a one card combo... But then it isn't just a one card combo, is it?
I understand decks play a bunch of graveyard hate, but that doesn't stop Dredge, does it?